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Smuggling love

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Author
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#21 - 2013-06-19 13:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: 0racle
Uh, aren't covert ops transport ships unable to be scanned? That's smuggling right there. Hop to it.

You could probably introduce high paying smuggling missions from the pirate factions that bring you into high sec.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#22 - 2013-06-19 13:45:23 UTC
0racle wrote:
Uh, aren't covert ops transport ships unable to be scanned? That's smuggling right there. Hop to it.

You could probably introduce high paying smuggling missions from the pirate factions that bring you into high sec.

You get hit with fines and standing losses as soon as you warp to 0 and jump through any gate in highsec, covops doesnt help in this situation.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

0racle
Galactic Rangers
#23 - 2013-06-19 13:59:18 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
0racle wrote:
Uh, aren't covert ops transport ships unable to be scanned? That's smuggling right there. Hop to it.

You could probably introduce high paying smuggling missions from the pirate factions that bring you into high sec.

You get hit with fines and standing losses as soon as you warp to 0 and jump through any gate in highsec, covops doesnt help in this situation.


And I assume these fines and standing losses are brought about when they scan you. Simply make it so the "unscannable" status of blockade runners applies to NPCs also. Problem solved.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#24 - 2013-06-19 15:37:41 UTC
I remember the smuggling profession was going to be part of Incarna. The reasoning being you had to buy and sell items "off the grid", that is not via either the contracts system or the normal station market. You would meet in person in establishments run by players. Then in space players would be the enforcers. Of the new items to be smuggled, Quafe Zero was a prototype.

But due to statue shooting we lost the development of Incarna, and thus the smuggling profession got canned too.

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Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#25 - 2013-06-19 16:29:02 UTC
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
I thought this thread was going to be about smuggling prostitutes.

Lol

It could be!
joelinux
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-06-19 16:35:18 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I want to smuggle love. CCP, let me smuggle love!


There is no love in the cold, dark depths of space. The uncaring stars look on as we, demigods and the successors to humanity, litter the cosmos with the smoldering wreckage of each others' hopes and dreams. Everything we turn our gaze upon will submit to our whims and wills or face obliteration. There is no love in the cold, dark depths of space.

Maybe it's because CCP won't allow you to smuggle any in for us.


Yes there is. After you get someone in a gate camp, then crack the egg, it leaves behind a "companion". You can feel free to love that all you want. And no customs agent will ever care.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#27 - 2013-06-19 16:37:27 UTC
0racle wrote:
Uh, aren't covert ops transport ships unable to be scanned? That's smuggling right there. Hop to it.

You could probably introduce high paying smuggling missions from the pirate factions that bring you into high sec.

By adding a skill to help vs scanning and low slot items to do the same, you get a boost to invention, industry, etc. Having a chance of getting caught with your hold full of contraband adds to the excitement. Having other players along with customs being able to flag you adds that extra layer of connectivity.

Missions would be nice and the content would create itself (take X Y number of jumps to Z). But imagine if the only way you could get an Amarr faction item into Minmatar space (or vice versa) would be to smuggle it. Damn that would be sweet.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-06-19 18:38:23 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
0racle wrote:
Uh, aren't covert ops transport ships unable to be scanned? That's smuggling right there. Hop to it.

You could probably introduce high paying smuggling missions from the pirate factions that bring you into high sec.

By adding a skill to help vs scanning and low slot items to do the same, you get a boost to invention, industry, etc. Having a chance of getting caught with your hold full of contraband adds to the excitement. Having other players along with customs being able to flag you adds that extra layer of connectivity.

Missions would be nice and the content would create itself (take X Y number of jumps to Z). But imagine if the only way you could get an Amarr faction item into Minmatar space (or vice versa) would be to smuggle it. Damn that would be sweet.


Not only this, but it could open up alternative market hubs. If say, you'd be fined 50% of the market value of all enemy empire faction items and 150% of all pirate faction items in .9 to 1.0 space, Hek, being a .5 system would probably really balloon as a hub.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#29 - 2013-06-19 20:15:44 UTC
I have a old forum post somewhere long ago about how smuggling, combat boosters, and WiS could all be tied together into an epic immersive experience.

The Drake is a Lie

FoxFire Ayderan
#30 - 2013-06-19 21:45:00 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
There have been multiple designs made for smuggling. It's something we are very fascinated by and keep talking about again and again. We just haven't been able to set on a good design yet.

It obviously needs a lot of content to be viable and some introduction of heavily used items (preferably consumed) which are illegal and require you to smuggle it and sell it on some black market. I think that would be a basic premise.

But currently, there are no short-term plans to introduce smuggling as a profession.

Keep bringing it up and propose ideas as that can spark our enthusiasm and get it back in the foreground.


I vote for the smuggling of Soilent Green (or something equivalent). Not sure what its use would be. But it's gotta be something nearly everyone would agree is totally disgusting and would therefore want to outlaw its use and transport.



Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-06-19 22:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgoth24
+1 to this idea as a whole, however it's implemented. More professions = More interested players

Why not expand the booster system?

As it stands it's underused and limited. Think of an alchemy-style system where, in the production process, different side effects were inherent in the products. The materials could be of different grades, or could use chance-based enhancements like codebreakers are for invention, to produce different grade products. The production process is mini-game friendly like mapping a brain or trying to get two substances to interact without side effects.

What about a drug that boosted your social interaction, causing you to gain more LP per mission? Or increased the ability of your mind to sort through wreckage, increasing the number of components salvaged?

The alchemy could be linked to a black market station service or new player owned structure or POS module that could make production only possible in low/null and consumption obviously more towards high sec.

If you want an item to be used pervasively in high sec (where smuggling would happen) make it relevant to making more isk and there will be demand.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#32 - 2013-06-19 23:51:47 UTC
As mentioned the boosters transported into hi sec. Additionally mission items such as slaves to Minmatar etc would be consumed by the mission. But other items could be made illegal too.

Faction ammo is consumable and making enemy faction items illegal would require they be smuggled. You want some sweet Minmatar projectile ammo for your Mach but you live in Amarr space, best pay a smuggler to get you some. Same could apply to nonconsumables.

Slight color change in transport contracts and a warning is all you need to notify someone that a contract is a smuggling contract.

Past posts have explored the mechanics of detection and results of detection. Many discuss mostly low slot items that can be used to create smuggling holds to help avoid detection. Rigs (which are semi-consumable) could also be created.

I would definitely create a smuggling character. In addition I would love to create a bounty hunter out to catch smugglers. Detecting and flagging smugglers, payoffs to not flag smugglers, blowing them up and having the option of picking up their illegal cargo or summoning the authorities for a reward....I can go on and on and probably will.

Thank you CCP for noticing this thread!
FoxFire Ayderan
#33 - 2013-06-20 00:46:51 UTC
If you're going to be smugling slaves, even for a PvE mission, then other players should be able to try to scan you down, and if they determine with a 90% degree of confidence that you are carrying slaves, then your ship becomes fair game for attack. (The slaves would always survive as ejected cargo).

Now on rare occassions, you will scan someone down with a 90% degree of confidence that they are carrying slaves when in fact they are not carrying slaves!!

That person's ship will become legally attackable to you, even though they are not actually carrying slaves. Now.... should you attack and destroy a ship which you believe to be carrying slaves, and it turns out that they were NOT carrying slaves, then you are penalized the full cost of that pilot's loss, automatically payed out to that pilot. (If you don't have enough ISK, then it becomes a debt that will be paid back as you earn ISK. Perhaps CONCORD can make up the difference to the aggrieved pilot and the perpetrator pays it back to CONCORD.)

That penalty would include the cost of implants if you pod them, though perhaps, if your safety is set, you will not be able to pod a pilot who you mistakenly thought was carrying slaves. You can legally pod a pilot who was actually carrying slaves.

This would introduce some extra degree of risk to attacking a pilot who you believe to be smuggling. On rare occassions you will be wrong, and will be penalized for blowing up someone's ship when they were innocent.
FoxFire Ayderan
#34 - 2013-06-20 01:09:40 UTC

So... you can imagine a scenario where you've scanned a ship down, they become attackable to you. You web them, open up a convo, and let them know you scanned them down and determined they are carrying slaves.

You inform them that they can either eject those slaves or you will blow their ship up, and maybe even their pod.

They could proclaim that your scan is wrong and plead with you to let them go. (By-the-way, subsequent scans of the ship from the same pilot will yield the exact same results regardless).

Or they could eject the slaves, take a serious hit from the agent/corp who gave them the mission (possibly losing collateral as well), and you get to scoop those slaves up. They now become 'Liberated Slaves' and you can turn those in for a reward. Even without a convo, if the pilot ejects the slaves, he is no longer legally attackable, but you can collect the freed-slaves for a reward.

Of course if your scan is wrong (with less than 100% confidence but greater than 90% confidence in what they are smuggling), you will hope that they do a good job of convincing you that they truly are innocent and are not smuggling anything, due to the penalty for being wrong.



Powers Sa
#35 - 2013-06-20 01:28:37 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
There have been multiple designs made for smuggling. It's something we are very fascinated by and keep talking about again and again. We just haven't been able to set on a good design yet.

It obviously needs a lot of content to be viable and some introduction of heavily used items (preferably consumed) which are illegal and require you to smuggle it and sell it on some black market. I think that would be a basic premise.

But currently, there are no short-term plans to introduce smuggling as a profession.

Keep bringing it up and propose ideas as that can spark our enthusiasm and get it back in the foreground.

I just want more spacedrugs in highsec. Make it happen.

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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-06-20 15:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
So this thread got me brainstorming...What are the things that define the smuggling experience (already in Eve or in RL).

-One man's smuggler is another man's dealer of arms to freedom fighters (the morality of their mission is relative).
-Knowing the turf, knowing the sightlines, the maps, who can be paid off, how to smooth talk etc, is key.
-Knowing your markets, and the territory of your competitors
-Being ready to back up your friends in a fight
-Having interesting and unique ways to avoid detection/suspicion
-Having a love/hate relationship to authority (smugglers are the biggest cynics/ conspiratorialists when it comes to authority)

This, in addition to what I think are drastically needed changes to the LP stores led me to what I think could be some fun and thematic changes to a lot of space, gameplay, etc revolving around smuggling. I have some proposals that would iterate on smuggling first involving a change to the supply and demand of goods, then the logistics and gameplay of the smuggler's life.

Supply and Demand
First to make smuggling a vital profession, you have to have people trading with ALOT of what other players want. Right now there isn't a ton of demand in contraband goods. There are some trade goods, and some boosters that are illegal and that's about it. I suggest increasing the demand for 'illegal' goods through:

1) Making faction modules/goods/ammunition 'illegal' to the extent that it is disliked by the local faction. This increases the demand for local smugglers. Customs officers, would attempt to confiscate discovered cargo if determined illegal, but fines would be in proportion to the legality (how criminal the cargo) and strictness (.5 space < 1.0 space). The legality of cargo would be determined by faction standings from here. This would be a dramatic change as a lot of faction ammunition, or navy ships would immediately become contraband. However, I will get to the ability to mediate this shortly. You could even say, no selling locally illegal cargo in stations owned by the local empire faction.

Example: The fine for minmatar faction modules in Amarr space would be 200% of the market value times the security level of the system (plus confiscation if they catch you). However, in Caldari space, it'd only be a 80% fine because the standings with between Minmatar and Caldari is -2.00 rather than -5.00 like Amarr:Minmatar.

2) Also, reducing the LP costs on a lot of faction modules and possible buffing some of them. Make their use a lot more ubiqiutous. They would be VERY accessible in their local region, and be much less so in markets with strict patrolls or reduced smuggler rings.

Logistics What would be vitally necessary to make access to markets work is some new ways that smugglers can get around, pay to get around, or find crafy ways around customs security.

1.) Have NPC convoys (the NPC haulers that travel to and from local highsec stations) occaisionally drop faction hauling licenses. These licenses would allow the transport of any contraband goods in that faction's space. THey would be non-consumable and good until destroyed. They would make any customs officers disregard the cargo of your ship if in the hold while scanned. Drop rates of these licenses would only come from the local NPC haulers (which are often guarded by station guns) so their rarity would be high. They could alternatively be purchased from logistics/distribution oriented corp LP stores.

2.) Have lowsec pirate faction ships occaisionally drop forged faction licenses. (Angels drop Minmatar, blood raiders/Sansha drop CONCORD/Ammatar/Khanid, and Amarr etc). These licenses are consumable (1 at a time), because if in cargo while scanned, a custom's officer will still let you pass, but suggest that you 'get the license checked' or 'recheck with your issuer' or something. They would be cheaper versions of regular licenses, but if you had a stack of them, you'd eventually run out. Think of them like 'customs fuel'. THere is a chance that they are spent each jump through highsec. Players would do the math to try to figure out if its cheaper to stack forged documents or get the real thing.

3.) The final option instead of (or in addition to) licenses are active lowslot 'smuggler's hold' modules that each have a +75% chance to conceal any of their goods from scans. This would apply to cargo scanners and customs officers giving yet another defense to haulers from ganks. Additionally, they could allow 'stealth jettisoning' into short timer cans that donot offend customs officers, preventing confiscation, if coordinating with a gang. Stacking these modules would greatly increase success, but not allow afk hauling with contraband. Cargo scanners have a reduced effect over time, so sitting at a gate in something that takes a long time would take more modules to be as secure as something that sat there less.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-06-20 15:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
Gameplay
Even with increased demand coming from high risk markets for goods, and greater supplies of cargo needed to be transported, the gameplay would essentially amount to glorified hauling if this was all there was. So what I'd suggest are changes to customs and convoy NPCs. (This would be an iteration mostly on highsec PvE and PvP gameplay).

1) Customs NPCs- Make these NPCs destructible with longer limited aggression spread. Basically make it so a small well coordinated gang could kill customs NPCs along a route. Shooting Customs NPCs gives a suspect flag. This would raise the risk of attacking officers on gates. After 20 seconds or so other NPCs would get aggro on you, and if you returned fire on local police you WOULD get criminal status. This could increase small gang fights on gates in highsec. Killing all customs officers at gates would mean free access to the system for smugglers, until customs rats respawn (<5 minutes).

2) Convoy NPCs- Currently, you can kill convoy hauler NPCs with only a standings penalty, if you are at a station that does not match the hauler's race. Haulers drop between 500k and 1 million isk loot and warp from station to station in groups. If the local faction NPCs carried the local faction licenses and you could flag convoy killers/engagers as suspect, then you would start to get lots of small gang fights off of stations for people who are hunting lucrative licenses. Also, it would be nice to see a few hauler spawns in lowsec, with higher speeds/resists/drops/dps etc.

So in summary:
+ To highsec pve driving up the demand for LP stor faction mods
+ To highsec pvp revolving around stations and gates
+ To new careers with in-depth metas for protection, detection, coordination, planning etc.
+ To lowsec pvp/economy for ratters getting license loot drops
+ Interesting new topographical changes to markets as many goods will become very difficult to get easily.
Adunh Slavy
#38 - 2013-06-20 15:22:19 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:

1) Making faction modules/goods/ammunition 'illegal' to the extent that it is disliked by the local faction.


This part ... maybe not. There are lots of players who min/max, like to play with faction toys. Players buy rat ships, etc.

Where I think the illegality can come in is the need for some illegal items to be traded in at the LP stores. The Minmitar like to free slaves right? So, turn in 100 slaves for X whatevers from republic fleet. The ISK sink remains since slaves, the majority of them, would come from NPC sellers.

What I would not do, at first anyway, is change the LP store so that slaves are 100% required to cash in at the LP shop. So you could pay 100 slaves or 87,000 ISK ... assuming memory serves correctly and slaves are about 870 ISK from Amarr NPCs.


Your idea "faction hauling licenses" is quite a good idea.

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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-06-20 15:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:

1) Making faction modules/goods/ammunition 'illegal' to the extent that it is disliked by the local faction.


This part ... maybe not. There are lots of players who min/max, like to play with faction toys. Players buy rat ships, etc.

Where I think the illegality can come in is the need for some illegal items to be traded in at the LP stores. The Minmitar like to free slaves right? So, turn in 100 slaves for X whatevers from republic fleet. The ISK sink remains since slaves, the majority of them, would come from NPC sellers.

What I would not do, at first anyway, is change the LP store so that slaves are 100% required to cash in at the LP shop. So you could pay 100 slaves or 87,000 ISK ... assuming memory serves correctly and slaves are about 870 ISK from Amarr NPCs.


Your idea "faction hauling licenses" is quite a good idea.


That's one thing I was going to add too. To get those official licenses I was thinking you would need rat tags.

In terms of min/maxing with faction mods. Letting faction modules shoot t2 ammo (if you had the t2 skills) would help this some (and if the skill's damage mod only applied to the t2 turret the balance would still be there). Almost all faction modules/ammo have some sort of equivalent that isn't 'objectionable' to local factions.

The current LP distribution doesn't account for this, but I would hope it grows some, making some space shift to be more lucrative. You could grow the LP access to stores if you opened up 'faction conflict/warfare' as I've suggested in other posts.

Example.

Republic Fleet modules (turrets/shields/ammo) would be minor contraband in Caldari space. Fines wouldn't be too high, and cargo running would be fairly easy anyway. Prices for it would be higher than Rens/Dodixie/Hek, but much lower than Amarr. Alternatively, there are Caldari Navy shield boosters and warp disruptors vice the RF ones. There is Angel ammo which would be legal in Caldari/Amarr space. Likewise, Caldari missiles would be higher in Rens/but Guristas missiles would be easier to come by.

I think it'd be fairly easy to justify that any modules that are 'equipped' couldn't be confiscated. So you could be fined for having Gallente navy railguns in caldari space, but youd have the option to have caldari navy ones anyway. I just think it makes the most sense lore wise for Amarr space to predictably have amarr ships, or ships friendly to them floating around there. Hulls wouldn't cause a fine unless they are being carried. Most of the time anyway, LP stores that redeem faction hulls aren't in enemy faction space.

This would offer a sort of alternative form of protection in highsec for FW warfare, where your amarr gang could be running from a mostly gallente and minmatar gang and if you jump into a .5 system nearby that you know has some customs guards, you know that you could be incurring a significant penalty if they have any faction mods equipped or faction ammo. Also, there'd be a chance that a customs guard would scrab/web an offender.

There could be an across the board buff to pirate ships allowing them to avoid scanning at a +50% rate or something. An introduction of a kind of t1 faction pirate hauler set would be interesting. Cheaper/lighter/faster pirate haulers that could fight back a little would be interesting. Or pirate cruisers with >2000m3 capacity but generic combat roles for gang hauling.

Distribution Missions Overhaul
Finally, I meant to say too, that the role of distribution missions could get much more interesting, as some missions could essentially be psuedo smuggling missions with greater rewards and chance of failure. Smuggling samples of faction turrets from one Freedom Extension station in Highsec Metropolis to a lowsec one in The Bleak Lands would make for a little more rewarding missions.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-06-20 16:17:27 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:


Where I think the illegality can come in is the need for some illegal items to be traded in at the LP stores. The Minmitar like to free slaves right? So, turn in 100 slaves for X whatevers from republic fleet. The ISK sink remains since slaves, the majority of them, would come from NPC sellers.


Thing is you could really tweak the loot drops on the convoys to accommodate this as well. For example, Small Arms are illegal in Amarr space, but there are a number of systems in Amarr space with some Minmatar and Gallente trade stations. If these haulers were killed they could have a chance to drop this illegal contraband, which could then be turned in at the local LP stores. Finding and killing a hauler spawn could have roughly the same reward as level 3 or 4 missions depending on their difficulty and what kind of space you are in.