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After-Action Report, Haatomo, YC115.06.18

Author
Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#41 - 2013-06-19 17:27:00 UTC
I share Andreus' points of view almost entirely.
Something that is being ignored is the fact that Heth was (Or is) just a mad man in advanced stages of a mentally debilitating disease who has gone too far from the interests of his own State.
His ideals of patriotism may have been beautiful and moving to the average Caldari but his actions have evolved into a burden for the State and a thorn in the side of the megacorporation's interests.

I can only see Heth as that troublesome child who received some appraisal from his parents when he made some cute art in his bedroom but had to be grounded when he started spraying graffitti on the neighbours' walls.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#42 - 2013-06-19 17:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
Once again you seem willfully ignorant of political realities.

Let us set aside for a moment how massive a diplomatic slight it would be for the Empire to insulate a terrorist and revolutionary from an ally's justice, because little more than "it would be a massive diplomatic slight" really needs to be said. Because of the disastrous impact of Heth's abysmal economic and military policies, the various State corporations had to borrow a rather vast amount of money from the Amarr Empire and its various financiers. If it became publicly known that the Amarr were paying host to a terrorist and avowed enemy of the State, then the CEP and the various corporations who borrowed money from the Empire might feel that it was well within their rights to cease loan repayments. If this grant of asylum occured with the consent of the Privy Council, they would rapidly become deeply unpopular with the Empire's financiers, which, despite what the zealously religious Amarians on this board will tell you, is not something that the Privy Council can afford to do.

Contrariwise, were it to occur on the volition of a private individual without the Privy Council's assent, that individual would rapidly find themselves in so much trouble as to match, or perhaps even exceed Heth's plight in severity. At this point, Heth only really has to worry about himself - a Holder giving Heth asylum against the wishes of the Empire might easily find literally everyone he loves to be on the receiving end of the Empire's wrath.

So no, Horn, the Empire will most likely not be coming to Heth's aid. Then again, the Empire doesn't exactly have a flawless history of sound long-term planning, so I very much admit I could easily be wrong.

It's kind of ironic, really. If Heth weren't so consumed with his baseless, unfounded, irrational hatred for the Gallente Federation, he might remember that if you're on the run from the Caldari State, there's one place in the cluster that has more experience than any other with hiding Caldari fugitives from State justice. But then again, if Heth weren't so consumed with his baseless, unfounded, irrational hatred for the Gallente Federation, he'd never be in this situation to begin with. Poetic justice, really.


Yes your probably right Andreus. I know there would be difficulties to overcome. Its long shot i am just hoping he has some connections that maybe able to make it possible. Obviously if he doesnt he wont go there.

Quote:
As an Holder of the Amarr Empire I will tell you the first thing we would do is pack him into a box and ship him back to the CEP...As you said yourself we are allies to the State, and the CEP leads the State. Not a declared Terrorist


As a holder that maybe your personal opinion Lucas but it will not be your decision to make.
Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#43 - 2013-06-19 18:00:24 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Yes your probably right Andreus. I know there would be difficulties to overcome. Its long shot i am just hoping he has some connections that maybe able to make it possible. Obviously if he doesnt he wont go there.


I'm afraid that Tibus Heth has, how to put it, "burnt his bridges".

He has no allies left.

Fly Caldari!

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#44 - 2013-06-19 18:51:00 UTC
While making no comment on Mr. Heth's guilt or innocence, DSTON renews our offer to provide asylum to Mr. Heth. This is in accord with our opposition to the death penalty. A small unarmed passenger vessel has been deployed to the Otsasai system for this purpose.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#45 - 2013-06-19 19:00:14 UTC
Pilot Momaki, we would strongly advise against following your stated course of action.

We Return

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-06-19 19:14:56 UTC
CONCORD have pledged his delivery to the State in the event of his capture, under article 9 of the Yulai Treaty. Which would make harbouring him a breach of interstellar law. So I have to echo Unit's advice, that's not asylum you are legally nor I would suggest ethically capable of offering.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#47 - 2013-06-19 19:39:23 UTC
Quote:
While making no comment on Mr. Heth's guilt or innocence, DSTON renews our offer to provide asylum to Mr. Heth. This is in accord with our opposition to the death penalty. A small unarmed passenger vessel has been deployed to the Otsasai system for this purpose.


I admire the stance the disciples of Ston are taking on this matter
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#48 - 2013-06-19 20:01:08 UTC
Most every time we rescue people from death cans, we place ourselves on the contrary side of CONCORD established regulations. Thus CONCORD does not defend us when we are attacked as legally flagged criminals. They make no distinction between saving the lives of those abandoned in space and stealing the goods of others. So we must choose at times to break interstellar law to do what we believe is right in accord with our values. CONCORD regulation is not our guide in this matter. We oppose the death penalty. If we have opportunity, we will try our best to protect anyone from such a penalty be they slavers, criminals, militants, terrorists, etc., whomever they may be. Among any other possible titles worn by Tibus Heth, "Whomever" remains one.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-06-19 20:05:35 UTC
There is a very significant difference between rescuing stranded spacers and harbouring a fugitive from justice.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#50 - 2013-06-19 20:12:59 UTC
Pilot Momaki.

Should data indicate that your currently deployed vessel, unarmed or otherwise, contains former executor Heth, It will be locked down and fired upon until either it's destruction or it's release of the wanted criminal.
We would not suggest placing yourself, an allied capsuleer or a vessel's crew in harm's way in a doomed attempt to pervert the course of justice in this matter.
As a leader of a known Templis Dragonaur cell, civilian Heth is a wanted criminal far beyond the level of your own petty thievery. Attempting to offer such an individual sanctuary is likely to result in your destruction and possible exile from empire space. This would detrimentally affect all former slaves in your care as any and all assets of DSTON would come under scrutiny.

Once again, We strongly advise against your currently stated course of action.

We Return.

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#51 - 2013-06-19 21:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: BloodBird
Ston Momaki wrote:
While making no comment on Mr. Heth's guilt or innocence, DSTON renews our offer to provide asylum to Mr. Heth. This is in accord with our opposition to the death penalty. A small unarmed passenger vessel has been deployed to the Otsasai system for this purpose.


"Look at me! LOOK! I am Ston Momaki, so obsessed with attention that constantly bragging about my noble deeds on a daily basis, and spamming the IGS with proxy-treads when things go against me, is no longer enough! I hereby extend an offer of asylum FOR A MAN WHO PRACTICALLY THE WHOLE CLUSTER WANTS ARRESTED AND PUNISHED so that I can show off just how noble, pure and merciful I am!"

You still disgust me, Ston. I can assure you that if Heth was foolish enough to accept your offer and seek asylum with you I would be asking DUTY. High command to declare war on your organization and destroy your life, investments and activities for YEARS to come. If not, there is little lack of mercs who will accept ISK as payment to do just that.

Somehow I am convinced I am not the only one who would do this.

Get off your high horse and grasp some sense, your eternal quest for constant attention and desire for endless thankfulness has limits, this kind of move would end you. Permanently.

*EDIT* By the way, I find the idea that you 'object' to the death penalty to be completely laughable, as you have demonstrated a willingness to undock unarmed ships full of rescued people into a waiting enemy ship that you knew full well was there, in order to martyr them for your own ego's sake and cheap 'look how evil our enemies are' arguments. You may as well have lined them, and your crew, up along a wall and shot them all one by one yourself, the outcome would have been exactly the same.
Lucas Raholan
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#52 - 2013-06-19 21:33:44 UTC
May I please Reaffirm Yuni's statement..any attempt to harbor Heth will result you being listed as Kill on Sight. While I can appreciate you're intentions in rehabilitating Slaves assisting a known and wanted terrorist is of a very separate nature.

Should you still wish to carry out this offer I will be reevaluating you're Corporation as a known terrorist accessory.

Shitposts so bad CONCORD gave me a 50 billion ISK bounty

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-06-19 21:53:29 UTC
If the situation arises, I can assure you I will personally attack any ship known to be transporting Tibus Heth for any purpose other than delivering him to the CEP. Having consulted with my CEO, I am authorised to declare that Duty will, quote, "offer support to any or all parties attempting to escort Heth to CEP custody. This service is free of charge, but will be on a request-only basis - Duty has obligations elsewhere and will not be waiting at the station for something to happen."

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-06-19 21:53:43 UTC

Heth no doubt has an asston of support in the State.

We'll hear from him again at some point.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#55 - 2013-06-19 21:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Ishuk-Raata will make a public memorandum within the day on this situation. I would like to strongly urge the Disciples of Ston to avoid associating with Tibus Heth.

Katrina Oniseki

Frawst Caldun
Lakshmi Independent Ventures
#56 - 2013-06-19 22:04:50 UTC
I am mildly confused. Could somebody lend a basic overview of the significance of this event?

I apologize if I am being intrusive. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3230461#post3230461

Caldun ~

Caldun ~

No end shall be too severe an end to meet.

Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
#57 - 2013-06-19 22:11:45 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Rant


A simple "that's a rather silly thing to say, considering" would have sufficed.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
If the situation arises, I can assure you I will personally attack any ship known to be transporting Tibus Heth for any purpose other than delivering him to the CEP. Having consulted with my CEO, I am authorised to declare that Duty will, quote, "offer support to any or all parties attempting to escort Heth to CEP custody. This service is free of charge, but will be on a request-only basis - Duty has obligations elsewhere and will not be waiting at the station for something to happen."


I'm sure the State would appreciate your assistance. Here's to hoping they acknowledge your feats with the same praise they afford the real DUTY.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#58 - 2013-06-19 22:51:26 UTC
Quote:
If you honestly believe any of that gibberish is true, you are completely ignorant of political reality.

Annex the Caldari State? Do you honestly think the Federation wants to have the added responsibility of administrating four more regions of space occupied by what would, with absolute certainty, be an uncooperative culture? Do you think the Federation wants to spread Customs and the Navy even thinner around an even larger border? Do you think the Federation wants to have to deal with becoming the Guristas' primary target, instead of a barely-considered afterthought?


Roden and Blaque would jump at the chance the rewards are far to great. Would surely outway any negative consequences.
Im sure Blaque knows how to deal with an uncooperative culture. Caldari people have just recently been divided by pro CEP supporters and Pro Heth supporters. They could use these differences of an oppressed population to their own benefit while at the same time consolidating there own authority. Im sure they wouldnt have any problem finding collaborators to work for them and help in the running of the regions.

Quote:
The only Caldari asset the Federation has ever been interested in from a military perspective between the end of the first and the start of the second Gallente-Caldari war is Caldari Prime, and we have so little interest in owning it nowadays due to the political problems that such ownership causes that when the opportunity presented itself for us to seize control of all of it, we negotiated with a foreign power with which we were at war rather than doing so


The Federation have such little interest that they launched a massive assault to retake the planet with i believe estimated death toll of around 10million people. The reason for the negotiation was because the mission was not a total success. They destroyed the Titan and secured the space around the planet. On the ground the Caldari forces remained in control of the majority of the planet.

Quote:
If you want an example of why forcible annexation of foreign cultures is an awful idea, look at the Amarr Empire. In the past half-millenia it lost almost a third of its territory to the Khanid, the Minmatar and to its semi-autonomous vassal the Ammatar Mandate simply because when an empire grows too large it is literally impossible to maintain control of. We've seen this dozens of times out in the nullsec regions, and hundreds of times throughout the history of the various cultures of the four empires.


Im not totaly uptodate on their histories.

Quote:
If we "annexed" the Caldari State, in addition to all the fallout such an annexation would cause, all of your problems - the Guristas, the corporate infighting, the lack of centralised government - would become our problems. We don't want your problems. We have enough of our own


Roden and Blaque would accpet all these problems with open arms. The rewards would be just to great.

Quote:
If he honestly believed this, he's as politically blind as you are. The State quite simply could not defeat the Federation in an all-out war. Your miliatry just isn't equipped or purposed to do anything remotely similar to this task. The State's military is designed to be able to defend the State's interests against foreign interference - it is decidedly not suited to the invasion, occupation and conquest of foreign powers, especially not the Federation. Notice that the only time the State's military was able to win a decisive victory against the Federation without overwhelming capsuleer support is when they had intimate insider knowledge of Tripwire - and they only seized one planet.

The rest of your post is just griping about how the rest of the Caldari State wasn't willing to kowtow to Heth's lunacy. He was a tyrant, a madman, a liar, a terrorist, a racist and after all was said and done, he's also a coward, because he refuses to face the justice of the Caldari State.

Face it, Horn - you picked the wrong side in this fight. Heth's going to lose, you know this, and you're just beginning to see that you'll get dragged down with him.


Of course he believed it why else would he be fighting. I disagree with you also Andreus. Wether they would want to invade occupy the Federation im not sure. Our key objective is the return and total control of our home planet. If the Federation want to go to war over it fine. I feel their goverment and people will lose heart and the will to fight over the planet before the Caldari people would.

I did not pick the wrong side Andreus as i am not an appeasor. No reason for me and my family to be dragged down with anyone, as i have stated before i have done nothing wrong.

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#59 - 2013-06-19 22:58:38 UTC
Pilot TomHorn.

You claim that you have done 'nothing wrong'. We assume you refer to State law when stating such.
It is known that you supported a Templis Dragonaur force during conflict with the Caldari Navy. This is in direct breach of State law.

Data therefore indicates that you are incorrect in your assertion.

We Return.

Unit XS365BT. Designated Communications Officer. Unit Commune.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-06-19 23:21:25 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Roden and Blaque would jump at the chance the rewards are far to great.


There is literally nothing justifying the unimaginably colossal cost of a long and costly war of conquest and occupation against the State could deliver the Federation that it could not obtain through trade or diplomacy. The only reason the Federation is currently in this war is because the State hasn't yet shown a desire to talk peace, because anyone suggesting it got shot down by Heth. The war has not provided any net benefit to the Federation or the State, and I was given the explicit impression by the CEP long before the collapse of Heth's regime that every megacorporation save one (guess which) desired peace because the war wasn't profitable or beneficial to the State.

TomHorn wrote:
Im not totaly uptodate on their histories.

Here's an executive summary.

"We want all of this territory BECAUSE REASONS. Let's wage a war of conquest. Now we have all of the territory! WAIT, OH GOD, WHY IS IT SO HARD TO KEEP CONTROL OF IT ALL? WHY CAN'T I HOLD ALL THESE TERRITORIES?!"

TomHorn wrote:
Roden and Blaque would accpet all these problems with open arms. The rewards would be just to great.

WHAT REWARDS?!

Do you think the Caldari State has a secret planet composed entirely of hookers, Crash and prime arkonor or something? You vastly overestimate how important the Caldari State is - and that's not a veiled slight at the Caldari State, that's a slight at your poor ability to judge value. The Federation do not want to annex the State. As I stated before, we already have more than enough goddamn problems.

TomHorn wrote:
I disagree with you also Andreus. Wether they would want to invade occupy the Federation im not sure.

Given how deeply in bed Heth seems to be with the Templis Dragonaurs (a terrorist organisation who, I should note, are just as if not more despised by the Caldari State than they are by the Federation), I don't think his eventual plans would be anywhere near as benign as mere invasion or occupation of the Federation.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.