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PvE to the next level...
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2013-06-18 10:48:51 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But the fight is against rats. Where is the achievement in beating a rat? This is not world of warcraft, where beating the dungeon boss is a big thing, this is EVE, where beating the opposing player is a big thing. In your PVP free area, you are not playing EVE, you are playing world of warcraft. That's bad.

these will not be difficult, they are against rats. In two weeks, fits and strategies will be developed to counter everything the sites can throw at you.

And what the hell does 'it could be forced as a reflection of matching difficulty, not a mindless lotto of failure.' even mean?

No, these will not be belts with rats spawning.

This will be minimum requirement of X ships, scaling upwards to a couple hundred or more as needed.

You are basing expectations off of existing in game AI and encounters. This is not transplanting those, it is taking AI encounters above and beyond.

The flaw in your logic is the assumption that major fleet events cannot be duplicated. That they will be repetitive and so predictable that farming techniques will quickly spring up to take advantage of them.

Between scaling to adaptive AI, this can be the PvE that duplicates the PvP tactical and strategic experience.

Ranging from a roam at the small end, to a major fleet on the other, this can be a new experience for many, and familiar to those used to fleet actions.



Where, exactly, do you propose CCP get their hands on an AI as smart as a human fleet commander? Major fleet events CANNOT be duplicated. An AI will have routines which can be learned and cannot be programmed to deal with every eventuality. People will do something unexpected, which a human FC could easily react to, and which an AI cannot.



We know you want your WOW style raids, but this is not that game. This will never be that game.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#42 - 2013-06-18 13:09:38 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
I see... so it would demand inventing unparalleled AI technology in order to replicate pvp-like experience without the actual pvp...

Nope, still stupid. The AI this would require doesnt exist, anywhere. Just a tiny minor flaw in your otherwise briliant plan...

You assume a lot.

The AI can easily exist, but like so many game aspects, too many players need it dumbed down in order to enjoy it without throwing up their hands and walking away in frustration.

That is why this aspect of the game would be strictly voluntary, and not forced or expected from those with no interest.

IE: when is the last time you were forced to go into a wormhole?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#43 - 2013-06-18 13:12:13 UTC
To mare wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
To mare wrote:
tldr: CCP i wanna PVE with no risk at all with some of the most profitable rats.

not sure if serious tbh

No risk?

Surely your imagination has failed you, to assume such a wild thing.

The risk will be overwhelming to solo play, and manageable to group effort, IF they have the skills to work together successfully.

The risk is there, it just comes from a direction you are not used to.

Being popped popped by a npc its not a risk, it just mean you are being stupid

Quite often the case with current NPC's, this is true.

To be killed you were either someplace you should not have been, doing something foolish, or both.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#44 - 2013-06-18 13:18:56 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Where, exactly, do you propose CCP get their hands on an AI as smart as a human fleet commander? Major fleet events CANNOT be duplicated. An AI will have routines which can be learned and cannot be programmed to deal with every eventuality. People will do something unexpected, which a human FC could easily react to, and which an AI cannot.



We know you want your WOW style raids, but this is not that game. This will never be that game.

You assume this cannot be done.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But let's consider the possibility that it CAN be done, by perhaps a few clever tricks.
Would you still oppose the idea out of principle, or would you consider it in a new light?

I know of at least two ways this can be made to happen, neither of which relies on numbingly sophisticated AI.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-06-18 17:47:07 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I know of at least two ways this can be made to happen, neither of which relies on numbingly sophisticated AI.
dont be shy and share

SSC Brokering Service
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#46 - 2013-06-18 18:05:50 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I know of at least two ways this can be made to happen, neither of which relies on numbingly sophisticated AI.
dont be shy and share

If proven too effective, these can be scaled back / modified to have the desired results.
It can also be practical to mix and match these.

Method 1:
Charted responses combined with traps that cheat. ( by cheat I mean we lack the means to duplicate the effect on them)

The hostiles have technology that is different from our own. They have bombs that employ energy neutralizing effects over wide areas, cloaked space mines, etc.
The AI can be set to look at skill point totals combined with ship choice, and target primary with 10% above average needed alpha.
Secondary groups can primary targets further down the list, far more effectively than a person can select based on guesswork.

Method 2:
Use players in a glove trick. As often pointed out, players have no problem shooting each other, the trick is to avoid biased choices being made with any accuracy.
The player enters an NPC encounter for a mission, and the mission simply masks him as an NPC. He sees the player ships instead as NPC ships, and thinks he is on a survival mission.
He can get bonus points for each ship he kills.

For this, he is provided a free ship to use for the duration of the mission.
(The ship's reactor is flawed, and stops all output after a certain amount of time. All modules are treated as rigs, so cannot be removed)
(When the player challenge is not available, random npc fights are substituted)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2013-06-18 23:26:48 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Where, exactly, do you propose CCP get their hands on an AI as smart as a human fleet commander? Major fleet events CANNOT be duplicated. An AI will have routines which can be learned and cannot be programmed to deal with every eventuality. People will do something unexpected, which a human FC could easily react to, and which an AI cannot.



We know you want your WOW style raids, but this is not that game. This will never be that game.

You assume this cannot be done.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But let's consider the possibility that it CAN be done, by perhaps a few clever tricks.
Would you still oppose the idea out of principle, or would you consider it in a new light?

I know of at least two ways this can be made to happen, neither of which relies on numbingly sophisticated AI.



yes, I would still oppose an area of EVE with massive rewards and literally zero risk of player interaction. This is a PVP game. Players are the main risk. this is not world of warcraft, you have still not explained why removing PVP from this area would be a good thing, and both of your 'AI' ideas are crap. Method one would be laughably easy to game, and method two, while not actually AI in any way, would be even easier. I just have my alt not actually shoot players.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#48 - 2013-06-19 01:27:22 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
yes, I would still oppose an area of EVE with massive rewards and literally zero risk of player interaction. This is a PVP game. Players are the main risk. this is not world of warcraft, you have still not explained why removing PVP from this area would be a good thing, and both of your 'AI' ideas are crap. Method one would be laughably easy to game, and method two, while not actually AI in any way, would be even easier. I just have my alt not actually shoot players.

Player interaction is not limited to players shooting each other.
Except for awoxxers you have just snubbed fleets as meaningless, since they don't shoot themselves.

And I am not removing PvP from this area, it never had it to begin with. This is not an existing area in the game, it is not high, low, or null sec. Those are all keeping the PvP they already have.

As for method one being easy to game, keep telling yourself that. FCs have a hit list of targets prioritized by experience, and this takes that and translates it as only an NPC could.
Players can be creative, and devious. The game can effectively cheat, by using tactics and methods not available to the players.
It balances out if you set it up correctly.

The leading attraction PvP has, is that for one side to win another side must lose. Victory is an achievement that loses value when it is too common.

Method two uses blind PvP. Kinda hypocritical to suggest you would not shoot another player because you believed they were not an NPC, because you would rather be shooting another player.

Ok, I gotta confess, you gave me a laugh with the last one, I just had to explain why above.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Loki Feiht
Warcrows
Sedition.
#49 - 2013-06-19 09:29:18 UTC
Wouldnt it be awesome if there was some live event type exploration storyline planned with a timeline that stretched out for a year or two that added new systems/regions to eve, maybe even the spreading of facwar into further lowsec systems with heavy fighting seeing some changed to 5.0's

More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-06-19 09:33:57 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
yes, I would still oppose an area of EVE with massive rewards and literally zero risk of player interaction. This is a PVP game. Players are the main risk. this is not world of warcraft, you have still not explained why removing PVP from this area would be a good thing, and both of your 'AI' ideas are crap. Method one would be laughably easy to game, and method two, while not actually AI in any way, would be even easier. I just have my alt not actually shoot players.

Player interaction is not limited to players shooting each other.
Except for awoxxers you have just snubbed fleets as meaningless, since they don't shoot themselves.

And I am not removing PvP from this area, it never had it to begin with. This is not an existing area in the game, it is not high, low, or null sec. Those are all keeping the PvP they already have.

As for method one being easy to game, keep telling yourself that. FCs have a hit list of targets prioritized by experience, and this takes that and translates it as only an NPC could.
Players can be creative, and devious. The game can effectively cheat, by using tactics and methods not available to the players.
It balances out if you set it up correctly.

The leading attraction PvP has, is that for one side to win another side must lose. Victory is an achievement that loses value when it is too common.

Method two uses blind PvP. Kinda hypocritical to suggest you would not shoot another player because you believed they were not an NPC, because you would rather be shooting another player.

Ok, I gotta confess, you gave me a laugh with the last one, I just had to explain why above.



Why, exactly, should there not be PVP here? Why, exactly, does the complete lack of PVP in your giant ISK faucet of an instance, make it in any way a good idea? EVE is not a hugbox. Yes, people have to lose in PVP. That's sort of the point.

FCs will learn how the AI responds to things and will figure out ways around it. Having the NPCs just cheat to beat any form of human ingenuity is hardly good game design either. Explain why having NPCs that activley punish people who dare to try and think for themselves is somehow good game design?

Why would it be hypocritical? It wouldn't be hard to figure out the player ships just from the way they fly, or would you have your AI run with things like multiple anchors, fleet primaries and the odd moron who won't listen to the FC? And if I just shove my alt in as the bad guy, my main can generate ever larger piles of ISK. Hell, just from fleet numbers it'd be easy to figure out which fleet I was in. Not many groups are going to be shoving hundreds of players at these things with any degree of organisation, and from what you've said, random PUGs from highsec are doomed and only the organised null/low/WH groups would stand a chance.
Commander Ash McCloud
The New Eden People's Front
#51 - 2013-06-19 09:36:54 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
And I am not removing PvP from this area, it never had it to begin with.
This is why it doesn't belong in this game. Not really any need to use any other arguments.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#52 - 2013-06-19 09:42:27 UTC
Does anyone else smell that? It smells like highsec incursions. Where's the Febreeze?

...Hey now, don't look at me like that. I hate Febreeze too, but people think you're using drugs and get all shifty when you say "light some incense".


Anyway, if you want people to learn how to fly in fleets in a PvE environment, that's what Incursions are for. They just also happen to be great big isk waterfalls populated by great big hippopotami. It explains why they're such jerks to each other and to other people. Hippopotami are scary when you get them upset.

I've mostly been trying to avoid this thread because the whole premise screams "JESUS RETCON SUPERSTAR" in ten languages and three number systems and I simply don't know how to address that properly, but the point about using this feature to learn PvP flying and fleeting needed to be dealt with.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#53 - 2013-06-19 14:21:01 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why, exactly, should there not be PVP here? Why, exactly, does the complete lack of PVP in your giant ISK faucet of an instance, make it in any way a good idea? EVE is not a hugbox. Yes, people have to lose in PVP. That's sort of the point.

Again with the expectation of the ISK faucet.
The rewards for this will not be the most efficient means of generating ISK.
If that logic held true, everyone with the capability would have already moved into a wormhole.

Danika Princip wrote:
FCs will learn how the AI responds to things and will figure out ways around it. Having the NPCs just cheat to beat any form of human ingenuity is hardly good game design either. Explain why having NPCs that activley punish people who dare to try and think for themselves is somehow good game design?

It is not necessary to defend an industry standard, as it represents the status quo.

NPCs have ALWAYS relied on tactics and intel simply not available to players. You accept these alreeady, though you curiously choose to not acknowledge it.
Go fight Concord. Tell me how that works.
Take a huge fleet if you need.
You hit a point of diminishing returns there, simply because your options to progress are illusions when you try to take them past what the game allows.

When you play a game on harder difficulty, are you punishing yourself for thinking creatively?
Your AI opponents shoot more accurately, they make fewer dumb mistakes, and they have added abilities you must overcome.
It's called a challenge, and if everyone could cakewalk over it, it would be a meaningless one.

Danika Princip wrote:
Why would it be hypocritical? It wouldn't be hard to figure out the player ships just from the way they fly, or would you have your AI run with things like multiple anchors, fleet primaries and the odd moron who won't listen to the FC? And if I just shove my alt in as the bad guy, my main can generate ever larger piles of ISK. Hell, just from fleet numbers it'd be easy to figure out which fleet I was in. Not many groups are going to be shoving hundreds of players at these things with any degree of organisation, and from what you've said, random PUGs from highsec are doomed and only the organised null/low/WH groups would stand a chance.

You assume a balanced and honestly informed experience.

No.

The player on the glove mission, in MANY cases, would jump all over the opportunity to anonymously screw up someone's day. And get paid for it. And not lose security status.
I believe that would be a pirate's dream mission, for many who already PvP on the unwilling.

As to knowing where they are fighting and who?
Nope.
All the glove pilot needs to know about are the ships that directly interact with them, or directly support their targets.
For their choices of targets, they can be given a random sampling of ships at comparable ranges to the actual ones. Not even the same ship classes need to be present.
IE: The glove pilot thinks they are flying a cruiser against frigates?
NOPE!
They are actually directing an entire battle group, and choosing targets as if they were the FC for them.
(Hmm, that logi frigate is keeping this one going despite my medium guns pounding it, lets kill the logi first then)

And with that change in direction, a group of BS class sized opponents begin firing on the logi boats in the fleet.

Scale, size, composition, all of these can be shifted so both sides have a rewarding challenge, and not even realize they have been playing against each other.

I don't need a smarter AI, I just need a clever disguise for what is really occurring.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#54 - 2013-06-19 14:24:28 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Does anyone else smell that? It smells like highsec incursions. Where's the Febreeze?

...Hey now, don't look at me like that. I hate Febreeze too, but people think you're using drugs and get all shifty when you say "light some incense".


Anyway, if you want people to learn how to fly in fleets in a PvE environment, that's what Incursions are for. They just also happen to be great big isk waterfalls populated by great big hippopotami. It explains why they're such jerks to each other and to other people. Hippopotami are scary when you get them upset.

I've mostly been trying to avoid this thread because the whole premise screams "JESUS RETCON SUPERSTAR" in ten languages and three number systems and I simply don't know how to address that properly, but the point about using this feature to learn PvP flying and fleeting needed to be dealt with.

Oh no, this is not any attempt to teach fleet ops to people.

This would be a series of staged challenges for people who already think they know what they are doing, and want to see how far they can take it.

The systems would push back, establish and defend new beach heads, and push again.
If left stagnant too long, the AI would eventually retake the gained systems.

The whole point is to create a challenge where people compete to be the best as a team working together.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-06-19 20:45:02 UTC
See, you've gone way, way beyond describing something that has any resemblance to EVE. You're talking about another game entirely at this point. When you find out which one it is, let us know so we can avoid it.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#56 - 2013-06-19 21:00:42 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
See, you've gone way, way beyond describing something that has any resemblance to EVE. You're talking about another game entirely at this point. When you find out which one it is, let us know so we can avoid it.

What part of "new" implied duplication of existing areas?
That would be an expansion, not anything genuinely new.

Look, this might not be something you find interesting, but try not to speak for others. Those who might find a structured teamwork challenge a new experience.

You have made it more than clear you don't completely understand my idea, by your repetitive comparisons to fantasy games.

This is simply an interest in the first PvE area that would not be either a farm, or realistically farmable. I know this was also something you could not digest either, with faith based claims that a way would be found being heard.

Would players be encouraged or expected to always graduate to this area? No.
It would be most comparable to wormhole space in that aspect. Some hardcore players would spend as much time as they could there, while others visited occasionally.
Events would likely be inspired, yes.

So, besides a faith based opinion about it not being possible, do you have anything constructive?

(For the possible readers not clear, I reference faith based in a manner to not imply any religious belief on Danika Princip's behalf, but rather a simple statement to demonstrate that she is voicing an opinion as the basis for her points on this idea)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mooer
Band of Builders Inc.
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#57 - 2013-06-19 21:44:36 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
See, you've gone way, way beyond describing something that has any resemblance to EVE. You're talking about another game entirely at this point. When you find out which one it is, let us know so we can avoid it.

What part of "new" implied duplication of existing areas?
That would be an expansion, not anything genuinely new.

Look, this might not be something you find interesting, but try not to speak for others. Those who might find a structured teamwork challenge a new experience.

You have made it more than clear you don't completely understand my idea, by your repetitive comparisons to fantasy games.

This is simply an interest in the first PvE area that would not be either a farm, or realistically farmable. I know this was also something you could not digest either, with faith based claims that a way would be found being heard.

Would players be encouraged or expected to always graduate to this area? No.
It would be most comparable to wormhole space in that aspect. Some hardcore players would spend as much time as they could there, while others visited occasionally.
Events would likely be inspired, yes.

So, besides a faith based opinion about it not being possible, do you have anything constructive?

(For the possible readers not clear, I reference faith based in a manner to not imply any religious belief on Danika Princip's behalf, but rather a simple statement to demonstrate that she is voicing an opinion as the basis for her points on this idea)

i would be interested
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