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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#181 - 2013-06-19 18:53:32 UTC
Would have preferred:

1) Fast with small hold
2) Slow with large hold
3) Tanky with moderate hold
4) Specialised hold (Gas/Ore/Ice)
5) Smuggler



5 roles all different. Useful in their own way.
Callic Veratar
#182 - 2013-06-19 18:53:41 UTC
I will continue to use a mammoth, even if the hoarder is "better". I hated the hoarder when I was given it in the tutorial and stuck with my wreathe for a long time.

On the topic of cargo expanders and cargo rigs. There was a discussion a while ago (possibly several years at this point) of changing them from "useful for a couple ships" to "useful for all ships".

Rather than setting up all of these industrials with a ton of low slots, and insisting they be filled with cargo expanders, seems like a poor design. Change the cargo expanders and cargo rigs from +% bonuses to +m3 bonuses.

Cargo Expanders give about +100-150m3 of cargo space per module depending on meta (and possibly new ones that need more fitting, so they can only be easily fit to industrials?) and Cargo Rigs give +250S / 750M / 2000L / 10000C m3 of space per rig. You can set up any ship to get a useful increase in cargo space, at the cost of a module/rig slot.

Then, modify the industrials to have more of a flat cargo space 18000/19000/20000/21000 for the fast and 32000/33000/34000/35000 for the big. Just like the modifications to the mining barges, any ship who's design dictates what modules need to be fitted to an entire rack of mids, lows, and rigs, should be purged.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#183 - 2013-06-19 18:54:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll try to get a meeting tomorrow with Art and see if we can reach an agreement about the Mammoth. I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.

Look for a post with final word sometime tomorrow.

The heart wants what the heart wants
Jovran
Best Friends 5eva
#184 - 2013-06-19 18:56:53 UTC
To avoid the Mammoth issue, why not just put both the Mammoth and the Hoarder with relatively similar stats?

If the superfluous hulls aren't really a concern, why not make them very similar.

Then Mammoth pilots like myself don't have to switch, and the Hoarder can be worthwhile as well so the art department doesn't have to be sad...
Eeio
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2013-06-19 18:57:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll try to get a meeting tomorrow with Art and see if we can reach an agreement about the Mammoth. I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.

Look for a post with final word sometime tomorrow.


Yes the hoarder looks good.

The Mammoth just looks even better.

Dont touch my mam.........
Kurron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2013-06-19 19:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kurron
The "awkward bunch" of leftover industrials actually represents an opportunity for CCP to add something interesting to the hauling game.

Looking at the different racial lines of industrial, you have this breakdown.

  • Amarr has the highest cargo capacity.
  • Minmatar align quickly, move fastest and have the lowest sig radius.
  • Caldari are inherently tankier. (Also leads to the best freighter.)
  • Gallente are good all rounders, tending to be second in each stat.


So, play to the generalist lean for Gallente by making the Iteron II/III/IV into typed haulers. The models already look appropriate for the roles, too.

  • Iteron II: Ore hauler.
  • Iteron III: Gas hauler. Already looks like it has gas storage cylinders
  • Iteron IV: Ice hauler. Short, bulky model looks like something that would be refrigerated. Big smile


If possible, give them all a small regular cargo bay (sub 1000m3), but a large specialized bay for their subtype, maybe something like 50,000m3 fully expanded. This lets those of us who trained Gallente still have a benefit for having done so, while opening up a better option for moving around specific cargo.


And for the Mammoth? Make it a Fast Hauler - give it a higher base velocity, but also give it a substantial bonus to warp speed, allowing you to move cargo faster across a long jump path. Make the cargo top out at about the same as the smaller t1 haulers.

Suddenly, those orphaned hulls have a place, and you no longer have to think about removing them. Thoughts?
Jattila Vrek
Green Visstick High
#187 - 2013-06-19 19:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jattila Vrek
I'd love to see a larger difference between the roles. Right now the T1 has much more cargo, but also alligns significantly slower than the blockade runner version. I wouldn't mind if the tanked T1 and blockade runner had the same stats where the difference between them is basicly that the blockade runner has some special abilities and bonusses (cloak, unscannable, ...). That way a lot of people will use the T1 to go shopping and switch to larger ships when they have more stuff to move. Tank is not a consideration for most people moving stuff around in hisec.
Aniras Ashbourne
The Ra-lin Corporation
#188 - 2013-06-19 19:13:12 UTC
When driving down the road you don't just see identical trucks, they are specialized for the cargo they carry. It's like the difference between a semi and a fuel tanker, imagine industrial ships of different color markings docking and undocking from Jita, a red stripped one, a blue, a yellow, all with specialized bonuses and bays to haul different kinds of products like the special edition PI ship was. 1) unrefined ore and repackaged ships 2)gas products, trade goods, and all miscellaneous items 3) salvage, ammunition, charges, fuel, and drones 4) refined minerals and PI goods 5) modules of all kinds for ships and structures including cap ship components. The bonuses could focus on their role or likely travel route. One gets a bonus to tractor beams for pre-Orca mining groups, another agility and hp for low sec, a third bonused for warp speed for high sec shipping.

The coloration would give pirates some idea of the cargo without needing to scan it which would be nice if there was a bonus to prolong the time it took a cargo scanner to run or blur the results. With specialized bays a ship could carry high value cargo in total but it would be more than a suicide ganker could loot without a ship of the same type standing by. Maybe one Indy could be made for Dust structures and equipment even.

Feel free to mix this up however, maybe large items like cap parts and POS crap should go in #1, but generally just an idea of what to do with all the Iterons and it'd give a chance for more expansion in the other races. Being a hauler as a profession would be pretty easy to develop upon, it just needs the depth that everyone else has from specialization and maybe some fancy contract revamping for ease and immersion.

Sorry if this post turns into a wall of text. Eve-gate on iPhone does that it seems. :(
Callic Veratar
#189 - 2013-06-19 19:14:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.


So far I think I've seen pretty clearly that players like the mammoth. A hilarious looking ship is not what I want, I want a good looking ship. Ship capability is important, but if there's a relatively equal choice, I'll avoid the one I don't like. It's why I don't fly the talwar, hound, hoarder, cyclone, or bellicose. They seem weird for the sake of being weird, not for some strange minmatar design choice (like the tempest, tornado, typhoon, burst, breacher, or reaper).
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#190 - 2013-06-19 19:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Decent set of changes to this ship type rebalancing.

Sigras wrote:
why is the iteron 1 basically straight better than the badger mk1?

it has more cargo capacity, is more agile, is faster and has more EHP . . . that doesnt seem quite right.

It looks like you are overlooking the prominent shield hp and midslot advantages that the Badger class will have. It has the worst capacity and align times, but the best tank. Nothing wrong with this racial distribution.

edit - and another vote for keeping the Mammoth as the high capacity Minmatar hauler, and making the hoarder the hybrid hauler.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Yotsuya Kaiden
Perkone
Caldari State
#191 - 2013-06-19 19:18:21 UTC
The proposed changes seem reasonable and definitely address the current imbalance of why anybody needing a starter hauler would fly anything other than an Iteron Mark V now that it only takes one level of Gallente Industrial to fly it. Actually I'm sure somebody will post their reasons but its still a pretty amazing deal for 1 level of a rank 4 skill...

As far as a solution for an issue raised by others in this thread would it be possible to address the desire/need for specialized haulers (ore/gas/hulls/PI/etc) through the introduction of new rigs for the current slate of T1 (and possibly T2) industrial ships? Something that would turn their generic cargo holds into a specialized one along with corresponding appropriate bonuses and penalties. An option such as this would give the players the functionality they want without having to burden the art team (who already seem to have enough on their plate as it is) to come up with new ship designs. This could also make these ships more tempting to use for more advanced game play much the same way the the Venture mining frigate is a great intro ship for new players and is still also has a role for the more veteran players as a gas harvester in dangerous areas of space like wormholes.

Just a suggestion.
Anika Ataru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-06-19 19:29:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)

Which explains a lot, really. Now I understand, why so many EVE ships looks so horribly. I generally don't like minmatar design, but Mammoth is nice looking ship for an industrial.

Btw I think you get those roles wrong. More cargo hold, more likely you get ganked even when hauling tech1 stuff or hisec ore. It really should be more like blockade runners vs. deep space transports, i.e. - one more agile with less cargo and less tank and vica versa. Unless getting people killed by suicide gankers is your intention, hm.

Homogenization is first word which came to my mind indeed, although Sigil and Bestower comes a bit on top of the others. Possibly together with basic Iteron because of agility.
Overall I'm really sad I trained gal ind V, but what can I do.. :(
Ellariona
B52 Bombers
#193 - 2013-06-19 19:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellariona
Kurron wrote:
The "awkward bunch" of leftover industrials actually represents an opportunity for CCP to add something interesting to the hauling game.

Looking at the different racial lines of industrial, you have this breakdown.

  • Amarr has the highest cargo capacity.
  • Minmatar align quickly, move fastest and have the lowest sig radius.
  • Caldari are inherently tankier. (Also leads to the best freighter.)
  • Gallente are good all rounders, tending to be second in each stat.


So, play to the generalist lean for Gallente by making the Iteron II/III/IV into typed haulers. The models already look appropriate for the roles, too.

  • Iteron II: Ore hauler.
  • Iteron III: Gas hauler. Already looks like it has gas storage cylinders
  • Iteron IV: Ice hauler. Short, bulky model looks like something that would be refrigerated. Big smile


If possible, give them all a small regular cargo bay (sub 1000m3), but a large specialized bay for their subtype, maybe something like 50,000m3 fully expanded. This lets those of us who trained Gallente still have a benefit for having done so, while opening up a better option for moving around specific cargo.


And for the Mammoth? Make it a Fast Hauler - give it a higher base velocity, but also give it a substantial bonus to warp speed, allowing you to move cargo faster across a long jump path. Make the cargo top out at about the same as the smaller t1 haulers.

Suddenly, those orphaned hulls have a place, and you no longer have to think about removing them. Thoughts?


Gallente comes second, really? -_- the Itty V has almost twice the cargo of the bestower (both fitted of course).
Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#194 - 2013-06-19 19:34:53 UTC
What? No added missile launchers? Big smile

[/sarcasm]


Nice changes.

If you are keeping the 4 extras, How about a Badger Mk III and an additional Amarr industrial?
You could then 'rescale' the Amarr & Caldari lines with 3 models in mind.

Another idea (coupled w/the above idea) would be to drop one (two?) of the Iterons. I mean 5
iteron models is crazy overkill.


my 0.02 iskies




Kurron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2013-06-19 19:36:20 UTC
Ellariona wrote:

Gallente comes second, really? -_- the Itty V has almost twice the cargo of the bestower (both fitted of course).


I take it you completely failed to read the first post in this thread, then.


BESTOWER

Amarr Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity

Slot layout: 1H(-1), 4M, 6L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 90 PWG(+20), 750 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4800 / 39201m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 160(-35) / 935(-238) / 900(-273)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110(-15) / 1 / 13500000 / 18.7
Signature radius: 215(+5)


ITERON MARK V

Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity

Slot layout: 1H(-1), 5M, 5L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 85 PWG, 850 CPU
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 6000 / 38433m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 375(-94) / 850(-518) / 970(-515)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 / .87(-.13) / 12500000(+750000) / 15.1(-1.2)
Signature radius: 220(-10)


39201m3 for the Bestower vs 38433m3 for the Iteron V.

Miss Mass
Doomheim
#196 - 2013-06-19 19:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Mass
CCP Rise wrote:
As you say, its resist vs repair. In the case of Indies, it would have had to be: resist vs nothing because Caldari/Amarr have no ship. This would have been the only case in the whole game of one race having access to a role that wasn't balanced in some way for the other races with another ship.


While I agree with this in theory, the reality is that the racial Industrial skills have minimal skill requirements. Any pilot can train to be in an Iteron Mk III, for example, in half a day or less. It's not like there are nested skills that make it difficult for a Caldari pilot to take advantage of an Iteron Mk III that filled some unique role.

EDIT: OH, DUH... And as another poster pointed out after me, the requirements for all of the industrials has been reduced to level 1. So having some ships that are specialized but only exist in one or two racial lines is fine since a "Gallente" pilot (whatever that means) doesn't have any advantage over any other pilot.
Punctator
Blackwater Task Forces
Goonswarm Federation
#197 - 2013-06-19 19:41:06 UTC
iteron m5 was always the best industral, now it will be little ****. wtf? and someone could call it good change?
iteron makes proud its owner in old days - now every industrial will be the same - it is realy **** this unification.
Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
#198 - 2013-06-19 19:41:18 UTC
Chiming in to also generally bemoan the homogenization of the ships, request more specialist roles by race and ship, and embrace the diversity of races. It may not be ideal with other ship classes, but for industrials where the investment is small and the cultural focuses have been drastically different, it makes more sense.

Give each ship its OWN role and you will see more of each ship. I hate to see the ships become more alike, and make this more of a design decision than one of functionality.
"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." 
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#199 - 2013-06-19 19:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
Kurron wrote:
The "awkward bunch" of leftover industrials actually represents an opportunity for CCP to add something interesting to the hauling game.

Looking at the different racial lines of industrial, you have this breakdown.

  • Amarr has the highest cargo capacity.
  • Minmatar align quickly, move fastest and have the lowest sig radius.
  • Caldari are inherently tankier. (Also leads to the best freighter.)
  • Gallente are good all rounders, tending to be second in each stat.


So, play to the generalist lean for Gallente by making the Iteron II/III/IV into typed haulers. The models already look appropriate for the roles, too.

  • Iteron II: Ore hauler.
  • Iteron III: Gas hauler. Already looks like it has gas storage cylinders
  • Iteron IV: Ice hauler. Short, bulky model looks like something that would be refrigerated. Big smile


If possible, give them all a small regular cargo bay (sub 1000m3), but a large specialized bay for their subtype, maybe something like 50,000m3 fully expanded. This lets those of us who trained Gallente still have a benefit for having done so, while opening up a better option for moving around specific cargo.


And for the Mammoth? Make it a Fast Hauler - give it a higher base velocity, but also give it a substantial bonus to warp speed, allowing you to move cargo faster across a long jump path. Make the cargo top out at about the same as the smaller t1 haulers.

Suddenly, those orphaned hulls have a place, and you no longer have to think about removing them. Thoughts?
This idea, while worthwhile, is unrealistic, given that it'd continue to push people into Gallente for the specialized hulls. Now, specialized hulls across all races--meaning that each race would have some special hold--would be pretty neat and keep it interesting.

Also, don't forget Gallente have the tankiest freighter/jump freighter.

Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:
Chiming in to also generally bemoan the homogenization of the ships, request more specialist roles by race and ship, and embrace the diversity of races. It may not be ideal with other ship classes, but for industrials where the investment is small and the cultural focuses have been drastically different, it makes more sense.

Give each ship its OWN role and you will see more of each ship. I hate to see the ships become more alike, and make this more of a design decision than one of functionality.
This is true, but considering that the CSM--those players who represent the various factions of gameplay--bemoaned homogenization as well, but CCP continued, means it unlikely that we'll see anything more than minute changes at this point. There was plenty of room to innovate across the ship lines or to make the hulls useful in their own rights. Instead of people training up Gallente V now, they'll just train Amarr V, because Bestower is the biggest. The thing that it'll help is that the top end on the ships won't be wildly out-of-whack as it is on TQ now.

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Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-06-19 19:46:35 UTC
Are you sure you just didn't get confused. Surely what the art dept said was, "if you want to get rid of one, get rrid of the Horder because it looks like it should be hauling garbage. Oh sorry, we misspoke. The Horder should be hauled AS garbage."

Seriously i skilled up to get the Mammoth just so I could go to the nicer parts of space and not be called a "sanitation engineer. "

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."