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'Local' is a problem? Why is that? (further study on AFK cloaking subject)

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#141 - 2013-06-19 13:50:59 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.



Wow and I thought you were above calling Troll on someone just because they don't agree with you




*disappoint*

No I am not above calling it like it is. I welcome opposing views and opinions and pride myself on being even brained enough to see all sides.

All you have to do is search either locked topic or topic locked and you can clearly see the pattern. They disagree with the topic or statement and troll the thread until it becomes locked. Same people over and over. Same tatctics same results.


Same tinfoil hat.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#142 - 2013-06-19 13:52:57 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
n being even brained enough to see all sides.

All you have to do is search either locked topic or topic locked and you can clearly see the pattern. They disagree with the topic or statement and troll the thread until it becomes locked. Same people over and over. Same tatctics same results.



You say "troll the thread"


I say "argue or debate from their point of view forward"


I shall reserve my right to respectfully disagree with your assertion that they are trolls

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2013-06-19 13:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shizuken wrote:
It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment.
Good thing, then, that what you just described is impossible.

E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn I place you and tipia in the same category. You both have a insatiable need for attention and you resort to trolling to get a thread locked you don’t like or agree with and you both lack the ability to see any other perspective other than your own.
Incorrect. Your main problem is that you automatically equate “asking hard questions” and “questioning unproven assumptions and claims” to trolling. In reality, it's the opposite: if you can't stand hard question and if you can't prove your assumptions or claims, you are the troll. That's all I'm doing: exposing the trolls. They really don't like that and have a tendency to call people trolls for doing so… but, of course, as always, without any kind of proof to back that claim up.

So, since you agree with his statement, let me ask you this: how does one module ever force anyone to do anything?

Quote:
All you have to do is search either locked topic or topic locked and you can clearly see the pattern. They disagree with the topic or statement and troll the thread until it becomes locked.
Incorrect. We just don't buy the (lack of) arguments being made and ask for some sort of facts or logic to support the claim. When none appears, we ask for it again. When the trolls finally (inevitably) expose themselves by not being able to provide anything other than hostility and abuse to bolster their still unproven claims, the threads get locked because they were troll threads — proven by the outed trolls themselves.

Again, your problem is that you equate questions and arguments with “trolling”, when in reality it's quite the opposite going on.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#144 - 2013-06-19 13:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Damn it Ramona, you know as well as I do, it's all he has left. Don't take his one last tool from him, you big meanie.



Yeah I have to remind myself that people seem to think that word means something other than what it actually means





I can honestly say I have NEVER seen Tippia or yourself actually troll anyone, simply state your points of view and make pretty good arguments for.







Thank you.

Who needs to troll people who troll themselves lol. People like hawkeye make these ridicules arguments, people see right through them, and those of us who point out the stupidity are somehow the ones at fault, when it would be a million times easier for them to just not make the dumb comments in the 1st place....

When a person has no argument and is getting repeatedly whipped (and public opinion os constantly against them), they have little choice but to fall back on the trolling defense and claim victimhood. It's a ego preserving dodge used by the weak minded when they can't beat you with facts or reason.

At the end of the day they are jsut people with no sense of responsibility, people who can't even figure out a video game and want's the game makers to fix life for them.

Some things can't be fixed.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#145 - 2013-06-19 13:58:35 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
even brained



Do you mean "open-minded"?





See, thats some light trolling right there

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#146 - 2013-06-19 13:59:59 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
even brained



Do you mean "open-minded"?





See, thats some light trolling right there

look it up if you need to.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#147 - 2013-06-19 14:03:30 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
even brained



Do you mean "open-minded"?





See, thats some light trolling right there

look it up if you need to.


http://images.dangerousminds.net/uploads/images/damn-charliefhfhf.jpg

No. Just no.


You missed my point and also no.


"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#148 - 2013-06-19 14:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Tippia wrote:
Incorrect. Your main problhttps://forums.eveonline.com/themes/ccpEveOnline/pix-trans.pngem is that you automatically equate “asking hard questions” and “questioning unproven assumptions and claims” to trolling. In reality, it's the opposite: if you can't stand hard question and if you can't prove your assumptions or claims, you are the troll. That's all I'm doing: exposing the trolls. They really don't like that and have a tendency to call people trolls for doing so… but, of course, as always, without any kind of proof to back that claim up.


I just wanted to highlight that point. I sometimes post out of irritation, irritated by the fact that someone posts a stupid/unfounded/unprovable thing, gets called on it, and all of a sudden the person pointing out the flaw is the bad guy. Why not just THINK before posting and develop good reasoning skills?

Because that's too damn hard, that's why lol. Just easier to label the half of the universe that doesn't agree with you as "troll" (trollverse?) and be done with it. And that is both weak and lazy....

..in the same way that running to a forum and asking CCP to fix something that doesn't need fixing and is easily aviodable is weak and lazy.

I must simply be doing it wrong, flying Machariels and Rattlesnakes around null sec (usually solo) making isk by the crapload while ignoring (or rarely, killing) cloakers that try to gank me or camp my system. I should have just docked up and spent that time badgering CCP ti fix the game for me....
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2013-06-19 14:11:57 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.



And my answer is simple, if you and the other 6 guys are unable to get the hot droper/cloak dude you don't belong where you are and you will loose everything you have sooner than later.

C'mon, 6 guys that can't take on a single cloak ship or even a hotdrop with cheapo throwaway stuff and still kill some of them?

You know what's fine when you answer back? -the hotdropers will know you guys will undock shite and kill some of their shinies, they will avoid cyno on your system because they're not there to loose ships but to kill ships.

Just man up or move to high sec if you can't handle with this.

In highsec we go about our pvp with systems full of nuetrals who may or may not be spies, RR or suiciders.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#150 - 2013-06-19 14:14:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Incorrect. Your main problhttps://forums.eveonline.com/themes/ccpEveOnline/pix-trans.pngem is that you automatically equate “asking hard questions” and “questioning unproven assumptions and claims” to trolling. In reality, it's the opposite: if you can't stand hard question and if you can't prove your assumptions or claims, you are the troll. That's all I'm doing: exposing the trolls. They really don't like that and have a tendency to call people trolls for doing so… but, of course, as always, without any kind of proof to back that claim up.


I just wanted to highlight that point. I sometimes post out of irritation, irritated by the fact that someone posts a stupid/unfounded/unprovable thing, gets called on it, and all of a sudden the person pointing out the flaw is the bad guy. Why not just THINK before posting and develop good reasoning skills?

Because that's too damn hard, that's why lol. Just easier to label the half of the universe that doesn't agree with you as "troll" (trollverse?) and be done with it. And that is both weak and lazy....

..in the same way that running to a forum and asking CCP to fix something that doesn't need fixing and is easily aviodable is weak and lazy.

I must simply be doing it wrong, flying Machariels and Rattlesnakes around null sec (usually solo) making isk by the crapload while ignoring (or rarely, killing) cloakers that try to gank me or camp my system. I should have just docked up and spent that time badgering CCP ti fix the game for me....



Everything about this. Much better put that I could.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ayuren Aakiwa
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#151 - 2013-06-19 14:24:52 UTC
Removing local is a terrible idea supported by terrible people.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#152 - 2013-06-19 14:31:36 UTC
Ayuren Aakiwa wrote:
Removing local is a terrible idea supported by terrible people.

That's because it's a solution to a terrible “problem” — not in the sense that the problem is truly horrific, but that the problem is horribly poorly defined.

The removal of local is the perfect “solution” to the “problem” of AFK cloakers. As luck would have it, AFK cloakers are not a problem to begin with, so the solution isn't needed either. Everyone wins! \o/
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#153 - 2013-06-19 14:32:02 UTC
Classic thread derailing....well done
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#154 - 2013-06-19 14:52:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ayuren Aakiwa wrote:
Removing local is a terrible idea supported by terrible people.

That's because it's a solution to a terrible “problem” — not in the sense that the problem is truly horrific, but that the problem is horribly poorly defined.

The removal of local is the perfect “solution” to the “problem” of AFK cloakers. As luck would have it, AFK cloakers are not a problem to begin with, so the solution isn't needed either. Everyone wins! \o/

Luck? How about truth? Truth is afk cloaking is a issue. Local allows you to see it. Don't pull your eyes out bc you don't like what you see in the mirror.

Change whats in the mirror not ur ability to see the issue.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#155 - 2013-06-19 15:02:11 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ayuren Aakiwa wrote:
Removing local is a terrible idea supported by terrible people.

That's because it's a solution to a terrible “problem” — not in the sense that the problem is truly horrific, but that the problem is horribly poorly defined.

The removal of local is the perfect “solution” to the “problem” of AFK cloakers. As luck would have it, AFK cloakers are not a problem to begin with, so the solution isn't needed either. Everyone wins! \o/

Luck? How about truth? Truth is afk cloaking is a issue. Local allows you to see it. Don't pull your eyes out bc you don't like what you see in the mirror.

Change whats in the mirror not ur ability to see the issue.


And why is afk cloaking an "issue". Again, I must be doing it wrong, living in null sec, flying blingy ships and not falling over dead when a frig when a cloak gets within 9 parsec of me.

The issue isn't cloaking or local. It/s the players and their bad choices , laziness, lack of creativity, resolve and adventure.

Sometimes people are so dumb as to sign rental agreements that don't allow them ratting/mining rights outside of that one system, so one "afk cloaker" can **** them down.

Sometimes people are too lazy to come up with counters to what an "afk cloaker" can do despite this game having hundreds of ships, weapons and mods that can be used to mitigate or defeat the risk involved. It took me like 30 seconds to dream up my warp core stabbed FoF missile ratting raven 3 years ago.

Sometimes people are too dumb to do their null sec pve activities in groups. I heard one guy claim that the rest of his corp was asleep when he was online so he had no back up. GEE GOLLY it couldn't be his incorrect choice in corps to join could it? NO its afk cloakers and local.

I mean seriously, look at the peopel whining. Rather than use what they got to deal with the problem, they just dock up and run to the forums asking for ccp to help them. How bloody weak is that?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#156 - 2013-06-19 15:11:50 UTC
Sarcasim wrote:
Luck? How about truth?
Ok. Fine. The truth is that AFK cloakers are not a problem to begin with, so the remove-local solution isn't needed either. Everyone (still) wins! \o/

AFK cloakers are not a problem by virtue of being both AFK and cloaked. One means they can't do anything and the other means they can't do anything. Nothing squared = nothing. All the problems people claim to have with AFK cloakers have nothing to do with either AFK:ness or cloaking.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#157 - 2013-06-19 15:14:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Incorrect. Your main problhttps://forums.eveonline.com/themes/ccpEveOnline/pix-trans.pngem is that you automatically equate “asking hard questions” and “questioning unproven assumptions and claims” to trolling. In reality, it's the opposite: if you can't stand hard question and if you can't prove your assumptions or claims, you are the troll. That's all I'm doing: exposing the trolls. They really don't like that and have a tendency to call people trolls for doing so… but, of course, as always, without any kind of proof to back that claim up.


I just wanted to highlight that point. I sometimes post out of irritation, irritated by the fact that someone posts a stupid/unfounded/unprovable thing, gets called on it, and all of a sudden the person pointing out the flaw is the bad guy. Why not just THINK before posting and develop good reasoning skills?

Because that's too damn hard, that's why lol. Just easier to label the half of the universe that doesn't agree with you as "troll" (trollverse?) and be done with it. And that is both weak and lazy....

..in the same way that running to a forum and asking CCP to fix something that doesn't need fixing and is easily aviodable is weak and lazy.

I must simply be doing it wrong, flying Machariels and Rattlesnakes around null sec (usually solo) making isk by the crapload while ignoring (or rarely, killing) cloakers that try to gank me or camp my system. I should have just docked up and spent that time badgering CCP ti fix the game for me....


You should be on the CSM.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#158 - 2013-06-19 15:17:58 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


You should be on the CSM.



Hear hear


She'd get my vote


Hell if she and Tippia both ran, I'd be torn tbh

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#159 - 2013-06-19 15:19:30 UTC
I wish I was smart enough to persuade Tippia that it would be in her rational interest to run for CSM


Oh well, that still leaves blackmail, bribery and threats! Pirate

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#160 - 2013-06-19 15:23:21 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Shizuken wrote:

Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.


Don't really see how this guy was an AFK cloaker. Just a cloaker. And if he uncloaks in a bomber he can be pointed and killed in short order. Like you, I would have spent my time trying to kill him. With friends, would have tried to set up some bait, maybe my own cloaky ships to get him. Could have spent all my day's game time doing that and felt like I had fun whether we killed him or not.

If 7 of you can't take on one cloaky frigate, I'm not entirely sure the fault is his.


It is not a matter of being able to inflict enough damage, it is getting the opportunity to do so. You have to wait for him to **** up before you can attack.

He was not an afk cloaker, but therein lies the problem. Whether a cloaker is AFK or not, as a player you must treat them equally. The initiative favors the cloaker. He could log on, go to sunday school, watch the bears game, and eat a sandwich. All the while, as defending players we have to be on the lookout and searching. At any time the dude could come back to his computer and start to actually play.

Here is the problem with local chat. When people complain about it, they do so not because they are mad that they can see other players in system, it is that other players can see them, automatically, with no effort expended. In my example above, when the afk cloaker comes back to play he can instantly see who is in the system. With no local chat, the moment he gets back to his computer he would then have to spend time and effort to actually locate targets, just as anyone hunting him would. It puts the cloaker and the defender on an even footing. Rather than giving the cloaker a blanket opportunity to harass people just by being logged in.


A cloaker (discussing the afk aspect of it is dishonest so lets not) does not gain some "blanket opportunity to harass". There is nothing that forces you to do anything in response to them other than yourself. If you want to dock up and cry, fine. If you want to hunt for hours on end fruitlessly, fine. If you want to ignore it and get on with your lives, fine. These are YOUR choices, not his. He cannot force you to the one he wants you to. If you think what you're doing is interfering with your own goals too much, or that you're giving him what he wants then - gasp - STOP doing what he wants.

The problem with cloaking is that some people think it somehow means they HAVE to do X in response to it. You don't. You have a lot of choice in the matter. If you don't like the choice you picked, pick another one.

hope this helps m8
o7