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'Local' is a problem? Why is that? (further study on AFK cloaking subject)

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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-06-19 02:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Shizuken wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Shizuken wrote:

Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.


Don't really see how this guy was an AFK cloaker. Just a cloaker. And if he uncloaks in a bomber he can be pointed and killed in short order. Like you, I would have spent my time trying to kill him. With friends, would have tried to set up some bait, maybe my own cloaky ships to get him. Could have spent all my day's game time doing that and felt like I had fun whether we killed him or not.

If 7 of you can't take on one cloaky frigate, I'm not entirely sure the fault is his.


It is not a matter of being able to inflict enough damage, it is getting the opportunity to do so. You have to wait for him to **** up before you can attack.

He was not an afk cloaker, but therein lies the problem. Whether a cloaker is AFK or not, as a player you must treat them equally. The initiative favors the cloaker. He could log on, go to sunday school, watch the bears game, and eat a sandwich. All the while, as defending players we have to be on the lookout and searching. At any time the dude could come back to his computer and start to actually play.

Here is the problem with local chat. When people complain about it, they do so not because they are mad that they can see other players in system, it is that other players can see them, automatically, with no effort expended. In my example above, when the afk cloaker comes back to play he can instantly see who is in the system. With no local chat, the moment he gets back to his computer he would then have to spend time and effort to actually locate targets, just as anyone hunting him would. It puts the cloaker and the defender on an even footing. Rather than giving the cloaker a blanket opportunity to harass people just by being logged in.


A lone cloaker, especially AFK, never has the initiative when 6 friends are watching each other's backs. You should probably think harder about what you said here tonight.

It's easy to see that you are frustrated because you couldn't catch him. It is frustrating. Been there, done that, know how you feel. It does not mean that cloaking should be nerfed to mean certain death. Cloakers already give up a lot of dps and/or a lot of tank. Ultimately what is being asked in this thread is for cloakers to be easy targets.

Don't ban me, bro!
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#122 - 2013-06-19 03:24:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#123 - 2013-06-19 03:26:44 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
It does not mean that cloaking should be nerfed to mean certain death. Cloakers already give up a lot of dps and/or a lot of tank. Ultimately what is being asked in this thread is for cloakers to be easy targets.


That is not true at all. Making them trackable, but with more than a token effort would prevent precisely this behavior, but have little impact on someone who is actually at their computer.

And removing their free target list would even the playing field as well.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-06-19 04:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Shizuken wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
It does not mean that cloaking should be nerfed to mean certain death. Cloakers already give up a lot of dps and/or a lot of tank. Ultimately what is being asked in this thread is for cloakers to be easy targets.


That is not true at all. Making them trackable, but with more than a token effort would prevent precisely this behavior, but have little impact on someone who is actually at their computer.

And removing their free target list would even the playing field as well.


Removing your target list would have the same effect.

There's a reason horses are given blinders to wear. It's to limit their erroneous perception of threats. Obviously, having someone that is afk in your system is a perceived threat to you. Many of use know that no afk player can hurt you. But still, the complaints persist because you perceive that they can. They cannot. They never could. They never will.

Removing local would, in effect, be like giving you blinders. In w-space, I live with no local and yet I go about my business, pewing, farming my C4, doing my industry. I'm now over 500d's since my last pve loss from being ganked. W-space teaches you that there are things you cannot control, that there is no certainty of security and to shrug off the constant screaming in the back of your head that there is danger lurking. You learn to deal with, to take precautions, be prepared.

For you, it's worse. You have local telling you there is a threat. It's like a knife in your mind. I don't envy your position. But I will never support nerfing a class of ships because you're too afraid to go about your business. What you're wanting is certainty which is exactly what you shouldn't have. Do you realize how infantile people sound in nullsec who complain that 1 player who isn't even at their keyboard locks down a system with multitudes of people preventing all of you from doing anything? Seriously? Do you?

Don't ban me, bro!
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-06-19 05:08:38 UTC
The only real problem with local is that anyone in a cloaked ship can ruin the day of a botter simply by sitting in the system. This is only a problem for the botter. Which means there is actually no problem.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-06-19 05:28:34 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
The only real problem with local is that anyone in a cloaked ship can ruin the day of a botter simply by sitting in the system. This is only a problem for the botter. Which means there is actually no problem.



Actually, bots don't have feelings, so it doesn't even ruin their day. If they did have feelings, they would still be happy knowing they got safe and stayed safe like their code told them to. A job well done and all that.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#127 - 2013-06-19 12:48:12 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe.


Someone needs a dictionary.

Quote:

It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.


Highlighted the weak and lazy parts.

I've lived in null sec since 2008, I've literally shot at every kind of NPC null sec has, it's how I make my isk/how I plex 4 accounts. So i've had to deal with "AFK cloakers" (and those not so AFK). In 5 years I've lost exactly one PVE ship (a Vindicator) to a hotdrop, it was was from an awoxxing not a neutral cloaker.

I've adoptedmethod after method of neutralizing and/or mitigating cloakers/neuts of any kind. For example, i have cyno alts in multiple ratting systems. cloaker comes in and camps, I jump in carrier, go rat someplace else.. If all my ratting systems are camped, I fit MWD and claok to my machariel, go find a backwater and do natural anoms.

Or, if I'm feeling sporty I log in the triple domi RR team and go ratting, if i get hot dropped I turtle up and eve if i die im taking a half dozen or some of the bastards with me to Valhalla.

Or i set up a trap with some corp/alliance mates.

Or i rat with the cheap warp core stabbed Raven and watch the poor little 1 (disruptor) of 2 (scram) point stealth bomber kid cry as i warp off when he decloaks.

Or i assgine fighters to my "Ratting Impel" or Venture (built in warp core stabs) and do the same thing.

etc etc etc. This game give you THOUSANDS of tools to use to totally mitigate what that camper is doing and keeps adding them (like target lock breakers). Hell, the game is TOO friendly to the defender and unfriendly to the attacker if we're being honest.

And yet you want CCP to make things easier for you. That's both weak, and lazy.


Quote:

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.
.

So the only way you can counter what I'm saying is to pretend I hold opinions I do not personally hold lol. I don't personally care what other people do in game, hell i've watch more than one movie while missioning in a tengu.

If a player wants to waste his sub sitting afk cloaked in a system while I leave and continue ratting, that's his loss.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#128 - 2013-06-19 12:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Shizuken wrote:


So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105,


Translation: Why can't me and 6 other guys in rifters kill a dude in a Titan??!?1 We pay soooo much more sub money than he does, that that's what counts dammit !

If 7 people let 1 guy affect them, either that 1 guy is awesome or 7 people suck.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#129 - 2013-06-19 13:18:08 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.


+10
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#130 - 2013-06-19 13:21:18 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Do you realize how infantile people sound in nullsec who complain that 1 player who isn't even at their keyboard locks down a system with multitudes of people preventing all of you from doing anything? Seriously? Do you?


qft
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#131 - 2013-06-19 13:24:05 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.


+10


Translation: I'm still butt hurt from all the whipping Jenn keeps giving me, so let someone else fight for a change lol.

It doesn't surprise me that you jump on the weak and lazy bandwagon.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-06-19 13:28:55 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.



And my answer is simple, if you and the other 6 guys are unable to get the hot droper/cloak dude you don't belong where you are and you will loose everything you have sooner than later.

C'mon, 6 guys that can't take on a single cloak ship or even a hotdrop with cheapo throwaway stuff and still kill some of them?

You know what's fine when you answer back? -the hotdropers will know you guys will undock shite and kill some of their shinies, they will avoid cyno on your system because they're not there to loose ships but to kill ships.

Just man up or move to high sec if you can't handle with this.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#133 - 2013-06-19 13:31:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.


+10


Translation: I'm still butt hurt from all the whipping Jenn keeps giving me, so let someone else fight for a change lol.

It doesn't surprise me that you jump on the weak and lazy bandwagon.



Jenn I place you and tipia in the same category. You both have a insatiable need for attention and you resort to trolling to get a thread locked you don’t like or agree with and you both lack the ability to see any other perspective other than your own.

I simply liked his statement and agreed with that statement. I am not surprised you felt the need to comment on it.

Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#134 - 2013-06-19 13:34:59 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.



Wow and I thought you were above calling Troll on someone just because they don't agree with you




*disappoint*

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#135 - 2013-06-19 13:37:40 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.


+10


Translation: I'm still butt hurt from all the whipping Jenn keeps giving me, so let someone else fight for a change lol.

It doesn't surprise me that you jump on the weak and lazy bandwagon.



Jenn I place you and tipia in the same category. You both have a insatiable need for attention and you resort to trolling to get a thread locked you don’t like or agree with and you both lack the ability to see any other perspective other than your own.

I simply liked his statement and agreed with that statement. I am not surprised you felt the need to comment on it.

Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.

+10
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#136 - 2013-06-19 13:41:56 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.


The hypocrisy in this statement is statement is severe. It is not weak, or lazy, to ask that a game not automatically transmit your presence in a system to any passerby. In fact, it is lazy to fit a single module to a ship and then park yourself in a system forcing other people to ratchet up their effort, manpower, and equipment. That gives too much power to one person. All most would ask for is that if you have a cloak, that you have to do more than be logged in to harass people.

People like you, I am sure, ***** and moan about afk miners, and how carebears just want to be able to sit in a belt and watch TV while they game. So, why is it then that you think a random antagonist should be able to gain some benefit from similar behavior.


+10


Translation: I'm still butt hurt from all the whipping Jenn keeps giving me, so let someone else fight for a change lol.

It doesn't surprise me that you jump on the weak and lazy bandwagon.



Jenn I place you and tipia in the same category. You both have a insatiable need for attention and you resort to trolling to get a thread locked you don’t like or agree with and you both lack the ability to see any other perspective other than your own.

I simply liked his statement and agreed with that statement. I am not surprised you felt the need to comment on it.

Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.


lol dude, you need serious help.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#137 - 2013-06-19 13:42:41 UTC
Gaidin Hollow wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
I don't know how anyone can say with certainty the economy will collapse of local is removed.
The most baseless assumption about EVE right after the claim that "AFK" cloakers need to be dealt with.


You do not know much about supply and demand do you.

AFK cloaking is mainly a point about this, it would help game bandwidth. This thread as some surprisingly good ideas like inactive timer if your doing nothing, and reshaping local and chat room to make it more appealing the vertical list is flat and is out of place with such a visually aesthetic game.

CryKeep the tears coming. You would be gankers.


WUT - This makes no sense and you don't support the point you are not making.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-06-19 13:42:54 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.



Wow and I thought you were above calling Troll on someone just because they don't agree with you




*disappoint*


Damn it Ramona, you know as well as I do, it's all he has left. Don't take his one last tool from him, you big meanie.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#139 - 2013-06-19 13:45:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Damn it Ramona, you know as well as I do, it's all he has left. Don't take his one last tool from him, you big meanie.



Yeah I have to remind myself that people seem to think that word means something other than what it actually means





I can honestly say I have NEVER seen Tippia or yourself actually troll anyone, simply state your points of view and make pretty good arguments for.





"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#140 - 2013-06-19 13:48:05 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Moving forward I will not be an enabler for either you or tipia and shall choose to ignore your childish trolling attempts and narcissistic behavior.



Wow and I thought you were above calling Troll on someone just because they don't agree with you




*disappoint*

No I am not above calling it like it is. I welcome opposing views and opinions and pride myself on being even brained enough to see all sides.

All you have to do is search either locked topic or topic locked and you can clearly see the pattern. They disagree with the topic or statement and troll the thread until it becomes locked. Same people over and over. Same tatctics same results.