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When will EVE Online get a 64 bit client?

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CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#161 - 2013-06-18 23:27:25 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
EQ2 got them in 2009.

WoW got them around 2011.

EvE???
EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/ Big smile

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#162 - 2013-06-18 23:41:16 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
EQ2 got them in 2009.

WoW got them around 2011.

EvE???
EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/ Big smile


DevBlogged!

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2013-06-19 03:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
CCP Explorer wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
EQ2 got them in 2009.

WoW got them around 2011.

EvE???
EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/ Big smile


Meanwhile...running 3x WoW clients @ 64bit.

1+1=2

RubyPorto wrote:
DevBlogged!


No...WoWed. Lol

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#164 - 2013-06-19 04:42:32 UTC
I run a windows 8 laptop with Mac OS X Mountain Lion in a Virtualbox install using Parallels to host a Windows 7 system. I run eve in the windows XP mode there. Because XP is just that awesome. And also because I wondered how it would run. To be honest, it doesn't suck as much as you might think. Aside from getting the keyboard, mouse and speakers to work through all those layers of virtualization. That can be kind of janky.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2013-06-19 04:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuttomenui II
Tippia wrote:
There are plenty of 32-bit Windows SKUs that can access more than 3.5GB RAM — it's all a matter of which version and license you choose. Hell, if you pick the wrong one, you get less than that as your maximum.



Interesting that. I have 4 gb of ram and upgraded to win 7 to be able to use it all and my computer can still only use 3.25 gb of the 4. And that is Win 7 64 ultimate.

My issue isn't OS based. It is the motherboard. Kind of funny.
http://us.msi.com/product/mb/K8N-Diamond-Plus.html

meh oh well, at least upgrading to win 7 got rid of that annoying virus win xp is prone to that plays sound like ads and such while nothing is open. Could never catch a process popping up to cause it. craziness. My paranoid brain thought maybe it was working as intended and its a new feature to drive people to win 7 cause Ms are sick of supporting win xp =).

Edit:
Additionally it states in my computer properties that I have 4gb of ram but it tells me (3.25 usable)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#166 - 2013-06-19 05:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Ace Uoweme wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
We're not getting a 64 bit client until they get 64 bit servers...
EQ2 got them in 2009.

WoW got them around 2011.

EvE???
EVE's server has been 64-bit since September 2008. If I may refer you to my devblog at the time: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve64/ Big smile


Meanwhile...running 3x WoW clients @ 64bit.

1+1=2

RubyPorto wrote:
DevBlogged!


No...WoWed. Lol



You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client.

Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2013-06-19 07:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
De'Veldrin wrote:
Good is a subjective measure. If it does what they need and does it when they need it done, isn't that "good" enough?


It's not.

Windows XP has, and most probably always will be heavily critcised for it's security flaws and susceptibility to malware for as long as it still exists. And that will even increase once the support runs out in April 2014.

Just because Windows XP maintains some basic compatibility to downright ancient hadware or software, which never received upgrades for any of the newer Operating systems, it doesn't mean it's a good operating System.

It has been good, in the past.

But not anymore.

Or in other words, just because some other **** stinks more Your own **** won't be less stinky or ******.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#168 - 2013-06-19 08:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
RubyPorto wrote:
You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client.


My first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair back in 1983.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

RubyPorto wrote:
Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread.


When you running 3 clients.......................

Roll

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#169 - 2013-06-19 08:52:15 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread.
When you running 3 clients.......................

Roll
If you run multiple clients then each has its own addressable memory space.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#170 - 2013-06-19 08:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
You seem confused about the difference between a server and a client.


My first computer was a kit built Timex-Sinclair back in 1983.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

RubyPorto wrote:
Also, a 64 bit client would do very little (if anything) for an EVE client, as it doesn't use anywhere near the 4GB limit of addressable space that a 32 bit program can use... which you'd know if you'd been paying attention to the thread.


When you running 3 clients.......................

Roll


When you're running 3 clients, you're running 3 separate processes and your 64 bit Operating system will take care of assigning appropriate memory space.

The fact that the Process is 32 bit limits that process and that process only to 4GB ram (it doesn't magically limit other processes of the same type). You can run 2^32* maxed out 32-bit processes without running out of addressable space on a 64-bit OS.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

*2^64/2^32=2^32

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jake Guido
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2013-06-19 10:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Guido
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Tippia wrote:
There are plenty of 32-bit Windows SKUs that can access more than 3.5GB RAM — it's all a matter of which version and license you choose. Hell, if you pick the wrong one, you get less than that as your maximum.



Interesting that. I have 4 gb of ram and upgraded to win 7 to be able to use it all and my computer can still only use 3.25 gb of the 4. And that is Win 7 64 ultimate.

My issue isn't OS based. It is the motherboard. Kind of funny.
http://us.msi.com/product/mb/K8N-Diamond-Plus.html

meh oh well, at least upgrading to win 7 got rid of that annoying virus win xp is prone to that plays sound like ads and such while nothing is open. Could never catch a process popping up to cause it. craziness. My paranoid brain thought maybe it was working as intended and its a new feature to drive people to win 7 cause Ms are sick of supporting win xp =).

Edit:
Additionally it states in my computer properties that I have 4gb of ram but it tells me (3.25 usable)


Just to clarify since no one responded.

Your PC is using 0.75 GB for GPU. You might be able to check this in your BIOS settings, probably set as automatic. Wouldn't recommend setting it lower though.
Sinq Arnolles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-06-19 11:12:26 UTC
Maybe resource caching would benefit from 64 bit since you could then cache more stuff.. May as well use that 32GB of RAM for something...

But then again I haven't seen a difference in performance between resource caching on or off. Does it even work anymore?
Dream Boat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-06-19 11:32:31 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
I'm coming late to this thread, but we have no plans for a 64-bit EVE Client. The EVE Universe Server is 64-bit because we need access to the extra memory but there is only need for a 64-bit EVE Client once we need more than 3 GB on Windows XP / Windows Vista 32 or 4 GB on Windows Vista/7/8 64. Otherwise refer to the replies from Tippia, they were all quite good.



Explorer I understand what you say, however my EVE client often crashes when it goes beyond the 2GB threshold, so it is being limited by a more legacy limit, care to give some insight about this?


Some older Windows OS's only allow 2GB of ram to be allocated to a 32bit application, you can fix this by adding a /3G switch into the boot.ini. This should allow upto 3GB for an application.
I'd suggest you look into this for your particular version of windows to see if this could help you.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-06-19 13:33:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Barakach wrote:
1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers
2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers
3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers
4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler
…and EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE?





I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be.



and that is all the reason i need to support this.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#175 - 2013-06-19 13:42:19 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be.
…which, again, is just generalities. The question is how EVE, specifically, would benefit.

Does EVE use these “certain algorithms”?
Does EVE need more general-purpose registers?
Does EVE need more SIMD registers?
Does EVE suffer from the legacy cruft or benefit from compiler niceties?

…and (also again) that's before we even begin to discuss the costs, such as potential loss of middleware components, loss of subscribers (or increased dev load from duplicating their efforts across two clients), increased memory footprints, etc. 64-bit may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't matter if EVE happens to be on a yoghurt-only diet and would turn inside-out and explode if you fed it some fibre.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#176 - 2013-06-19 14:07:32 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Barakach wrote:
1) Certain algorithms are much faster when using 64bit registers
2) 64bit mode has many more general purpose registers
3) 64bit mode has a few more SIMD registers
4) 64bit mode removes some legacy cruft and adds some extra niceties for the compiler
…and EVE would benefit from that? Those are just generalities. What would be the benefit for EVE?





I hate to tell you but faster running algorithms, would improve the large scale fleet encounters, and a lot of other items that are math heavy, so ANY thing that can be done should be.

and that is all the reason i need to support this.


All the heavy lifting in terms of math for things like Fleet fights are done on the server (which has been 64-bit since 2008, per CCP Explorer) anyways. The whole "never trust the client" maxim is so very much in play here, and is one of the reasons the EVE client is not much of a resource hog.

Which algorithms does the EVE Client use that would run faster with 64bit registers? Arguing that "some algorithms benefit from 64-bit registers, thus EVE would benefit from 64-bit registers" is fallacious, as you have nothing to support the assertion that EVE's client uses any of those benefiting algorithms.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2013-06-19 14:34:25 UTC
The only big client-side CPU issue I seem to encounter are bracket calculations and I guess it would be worthwhile to see if any of the SSE3 or 4 instructions could help with that (I have actually no idea what I am talking about but they are all about getting more vector maths done in less instructions so they might conceivably be useful for projecting some points onto a plane) but that's not even a 64bit issue... Roll

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2013-06-19 14:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
So I did some more research on this 64bit thing and came across the following graph in a devblog:

http://i.imgur.com/XhgcJMc.png

CCP, HOW CAN YOU STILL DENY US A 64BIT CLIENT WHEN 64BIT IS TWICE AS AWESOME AS 32BIT?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO COVER UP THIS SCIENTIFIC FACT?

YOUR OWN WORDS PROVE YOU WRONG, CCP EXPLORER.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2013-06-19 14:48:58 UTC
Also WoW has 64bits. When will we finally close the bit-gap? What is CCP's agenda here?

.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#180 - 2013-06-19 14:50:53 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
So I did some more research on this 64bit thing and came across the following graph in a devblog:

http://i.imgur.com/XhgcJMc.png

CCP, HOW CAN YOU STILL DENY US A 64BIT CLIENT WHEN 64BIT IS TWICE AS AWESOME AS 32BIT?

WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO COVER UP THIS SCIENTIFIC FACT?

YOUR OWN WORDS PROVE YOU WRONG, CCP EXPLORER.
Big smile

The server is 64-bit and the DB is 64-bit. What is needed to have 64-bit is 64-bit.

The client is 32-bit since we need to support Windows XP, there is overhead in having two clients, some of the middleware is only available as 32-bit and there is no reason to have the client as 64-bit.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer