These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

'Local' is a problem? Why is that? (further study on AFK cloaking subject)

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-06-18 17:29:54 UTC
Logan Brewster wrote:
Quote:
Did you notice you stated on fact in a post that has a solution for it?

"CCP can't force all alliances to adopt NRDS and the shift in gameplay expectations that comes with it, but they can remove local on null, or have it at least list only friendlies...."


Removing local IS the end of NBSI. There would not be any "instantly" that's for sure.


Null Bears = Hardcore seclusionists

Afraid because if you turn Local off others could spy on them and see they do the same boring stuff HS does.
Must always hide in station so mythos of NS doesn't die.

NRDS would make for a better game for all. We surely can't have that.

All I see is people crying about others taking space for themselves and not allowing anyone in who isn't friendly to them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
4runner
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-06-18 17:35:15 UTC
Have full Local in 1.0-0.5 , 3 minute refresh rate in 0.4-0.1 and no local in 0.0 and WH
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-06-18 17:50:46 UTC
4runner wrote:
Have full Local in 1.0-0.5 , 3 minute refresh rate in 0.4-0.1 and no local in 0.0 and WH

You're not adding anything new to the discussion. You're just repeating the same stupid mantra that's been shot down several times.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#104 - 2013-06-18 18:12:12 UTC
Leave local alone - I'm purely solo Covert and I get plenty of kills in lo-sec

No1 reason - PATIENCE ( and damm good looks)

If people dock, you wait, eventually they have to come out to continue earning ISK .

Busy local is easy - you hide in the crowd - quiet systems are harder.

No local might get me more kills and help me - but NO - it's not broken - some pilots can't think around the problem enough.

Leave it alone.

P.S AFK cloaking really pisses me off - why should my tactics get nerfed because the other pilot in the system is actually out walking his dog, eating popcorn in the cinema or in bed with his partner.....you should be in the game or out of it.

Can't understand that 'norm' in the game.
Capt Tenguru10
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-06-18 18:40:14 UTC
afk cloaking can be fixed 3 ways only.

1. it you are not actively inputting into the eve client. it logs you off in 45-1 hr time
this also reduces bandwidth use across the whole game on people who are doing nothing.
of coruse this wont help spam bots or any other program the would manipulate the program by making false entries.
so futher work needs to be done there.

2. make a skill and module that would allow you to dectect cloaking disruption, within x ammount of space per skill level.
aswell a module can be introduced to further narrow this down. setting up a grid with your m8's will actually making tracking a cloaker possible and might force him to move on.

3. the best one yet. remove all alts from game.

http://i.imgur.com/EYX5Zi7.gif
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-06-18 19:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Zen Dad wrote:
Leave local alone - I'm purely solo Covert and I get plenty of kills in lo-sec

No1 reason - PATIENCE ( and damm good looks)

If people dock, you wait, eventually they have to come out to continue earning ISK .

Busy local is easy - you hide in the crowd - quiet systems are harder.

No local might get me more kills and help me - but NO - it's not broken - some pilots can't think around the problem enough.

Leave it alone.

P.S AFK cloaking really pisses me off - why should my tactics get nerfed because the other pilot in the system is actually out walking his dog, eating popcorn in the cinema or in bed with his partner.....you should be in the game or out of it.

Can't understand that 'norm' in the game.





Bolded proves you've no idea of how perfect local is for intel in nullsec. Go into your local restaurant naked with a gun. Lets see how long it is until someone notices you and calls the cops while running & screaming. Now, try hiding in a sea of blue in null. Same effect.

Repeat after me:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others, Then you're absolutely...right!

BTW, if you're letting an AFK cloaker ruin your game play, I suggest you come back to Eve when your balls drop.

Don't ban me, bro!
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#107 - 2013-06-18 19:12:40 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Zen Dad wrote:
Leave local alone - I'm purely solo Covert and I get plenty of kills in lo-sec

No1 reason - PATIENCE ( and damm good looks)

If people dock, you wait, eventually they have to come out to continue earning ISK .

Busy local is easy - you hide in the crowd - quiet systems are harder.

No local might get me more kills and help me - but NO - it's not broken - some pilots can't think around the problem enough.

Leave it alone.

P.S AFK cloaking really pisses me off - why should my tactics get nerfed because the other pilot in the system is actually out walking his dog, eating popcorn in the cinema or in bed with his partner.....you should be in the game or out of it.

Can't understand that 'norm' in the game.





Bolded proves you've no idea of how perfect local is for intel in nullsec. Go into your local restaurant naked with a gun. Lets see how long it is until someone notices you and calls the cops while running & screaming. Now, try hiding in a sea of blue in null. Same effect.

Repeat after me:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others, Then you're absolutely...right!

BTW, if you're letting an AFK cloaker ruin your game play, I suggest you come back to Eve when your balls drop.



? What are you rambling on about? Must nearly be medication time - ask Nurse to wipe your chin while she's at it too.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#108 - 2013-06-18 19:44:04 UTC
Kraal Utrecht wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
there's no problem with local, the problem is with peoples gameplay expectations. they log in, see a neutral and think "oh well, no eve today." do that 3 days in a row, and they start making threads about how cloaks are OP, and whatnot...

one could argue that the source of the problem is the gameplay expectation generated by NBSI diplomacy... compare it to NRDS, the CVA space wizards expect to have their day ruined by a neutral in local, and they plan accordingly. any other SOV bear? they just had their day ruined.

yeah, one neut in local and everyone goes crazy instead plan something to outsmart him (if he is really there to get some juicy kill)


Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#109 - 2013-06-18 20:00:53 UTC
I agree AFK cloaking is a problem - I cannot tell you how much easier it is to scout and hotdrop a carrier when I am out walking my dog. Should be an exploit.

REMOVE LOCAL!

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#110 - 2013-06-18 20:08:15 UTC
Capt Tenguru10 wrote:
afk cloaking can be fixed 3 ways only.

1. it you are not actively inputting into the eve client. it logs you off in 45-1 hr time
this also reduces bandwidth use across the whole game on people who are doing nothing.
of coruse this wont help spam bots or any other program the would manipulate the program by making false entries.
so futher work needs to be done there.

2. make a skill and module that would allow you to dectect cloaking disruption, within x ammount of space per skill level.
aswell a module can be introduced to further narrow this down. setting up a grid with your m8's will actually making tracking a cloaker possible and might force him to move on.

3. the best one yet. remove all alts from game.



Based on the assumption afk cloaking is broken.. which it isn't.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#111 - 2013-06-18 20:37:18 UTC
Capt Tenguru10 wrote:
afk cloaking can be fixed 3 ways only.

1. it you are not actively inputting into the eve client. it logs you off in 45-1 hr time
this also reduces bandwidth use across the whole game on people who are doing nothing.
of coruse this wont help spam bots or any other program the would manipulate the program by making false entries.
so futher work needs to be done there.

2. make a skill and module that would allow you to dectect cloaking disruption, within x ammount of space per skill level.
aswell a module can be introduced to further narrow this down. setting up a grid with your m8's will actually making tracking a cloaker possible and might force him to move on.

3. the best one yet. remove all alts from game.



so you suggest the ability to kick or hunt down someone who isn't there?

in a nutshell, you are afraid of what someone who isn't there can do to you so you want the ability to do something to the person who isn't there

that destroys the balance of the situation and gives the person who is there an unfair advantage just to protect themselves from their own fear.

its a rotten terrible idea and you know it
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#112 - 2013-06-18 20:53:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
4runner wrote:
Have full Local in 1.0-0.5 , 3 minute refresh rate in 0.4-0.1 and no local in 0.0 and WH

You're not adding anything new to the discussion. You're just repeating the same stupid mantra that's been shot down several times.

So? This ... is ... EVEO GD !!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#113 - 2013-06-18 20:54:22 UTC
I will state what I always state in these "local" threads: TomB did not want local to be an intel tool from the beginning, and has stated as much many times (at least long ago). Take it for whatever you will...it was not part of the original design or concept of internet spaceships.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Gaidin Hollow
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-06-18 21:45:17 UTC
BoBoZoBo wrote:
I don't know how anyone can say with certainty the economy will collapse of local is removed.
The most baseless assumption about EVE right after the claim that "AFK" cloakers need to be dealt with.



You do not know much about supply and demand do you.

AFK cloaking is mainly a point about this, it would help game bandwidth. This thread as some surprisingly good ideas like inactive timer if your doing nothing, and reshaping local and chat room to make it more appealing the vertical list is flat and is out of place with such a visually aesthetic game.

CryKeep the tears coming. You would be gankers.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-06-18 21:54:06 UTC
Zen Dad wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Zen Dad wrote:
Leave local alone - I'm purely solo Covert and I get plenty of kills in lo-sec

No1 reason - PATIENCE ( and damm good looks)

If people dock, you wait, eventually they have to come out to continue earning ISK .

Busy local is easy - you hide in the crowd - quiet systems are harder.

No local might get me more kills and help me - but NO - it's not broken - some pilots can't think around the problem enough.

Leave it alone.

P.S AFK cloaking really pisses me off - why should my tactics get nerfed because the other pilot in the system is actually out walking his dog, eating popcorn in the cinema or in bed with his partner.....you should be in the game or out of it.

Can't understand that 'norm' in the game.





Bolded proves you've no idea of how perfect local is for intel in nullsec. Go into your local restaurant naked with a gun. Lets see how long it is until someone notices you and calls the cops while running & screaming. Now, try hiding in a sea of blue in null. Same effect.

Repeat after me:

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others, Then you're absolutely...right!

BTW, if you're letting an AFK cloaker ruin your game play, I suggest you come back to Eve when your balls drop.



? What are you rambling on about? Must nearly be medication time - ask Nurse to wipe your chin while she's at it too.



Oh, I'm just pointing out inept your reasons are to keep local.

Don't ban me, bro!
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#116 - 2013-06-18 21:59:55 UTC
Capt Tenguru10 wrote:
afk cloaking can be fixed 3 ways only.

1. it you are not actively inputting into the eve client. it logs you off in 45-1 hr time
this also reduces bandwidth use across the whole game on people who are doing nothing.
of coruse this wont help spam bots or any other program the would manipulate the program by making false entries.
so futher work needs to be done there.

2. make a skill and module that would allow you to dectect cloaking disruption, within x ammount of space per skill level.
aswell a module can be introduced to further narrow this down. setting up a grid with your m8's will actually making tracking a cloaker possible and might force him to move on.

3. the best one yet. remove all alts from game.



This doesn't fix the problem.

Hint: The problem isn't people sitting afk cloaked in systems.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-06-18 22:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Shinhwa
Shizuken wrote:

Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.


Don't really see how this guy was an AFK cloaker. Just a cloaker. And if he uncloaks in a bomber he can be pointed and killed in short order. Like you, I would have spent my time trying to kill him. With friends, would have tried to set up some bait, maybe my own cloaky ships to get him. Could have spent all my day's game time doing that and felt like I had fun whether we killed him or not.

If 7 of you can't take on one cloaky frigate, I'm not entirely sure the fault is his.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-06-19 00:14:32 UTC
Shizuken wrote:

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.

You have 7 people as a hard counter. The soft counter to cloaking is that they used a highslot for cloaking instead of a nos or nuet, and if it's a t3 they might have used a nullifier too.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#119 - 2013-06-19 02:05:41 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Kraal Utrecht wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
there's no problem with local, the problem is with peoples gameplay expectations. they log in, see a neutral and think "oh well, no eve today." do that 3 days in a row, and they start making threads about how cloaks are OP, and whatnot...

one could argue that the source of the problem is the gameplay expectation generated by NBSI diplomacy... compare it to NRDS, the CVA space wizards expect to have their day ruined by a neutral in local, and they plan accordingly. any other SOV bear? they just had their day ruined.

yeah, one neut in local and everyone goes crazy instead plan something to outsmart him (if he is really there to get some juicy kill)


Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.


The cloaky guy didn't cost you anything, you did by playing HIS game. you should have ignored him and called his bluff, or let him hot drop you and killed the drop, (NOTHI(NG deters hotdropping more than killing them). Or leaving the system and carrying on with your ratting while he wastes his sub sitting cloaked in the system.

I just don't see how people can call themselves gamers and yet refuse to rise to the challenge of the game. You're actually askign the game makers to make it easier for you, by giving you some kind of way to hunt ships that are disaterously easy to avoid and mitigated the risk they pose.

Game developers shouldn't be in the habit of compensating for the weakness or lazyness of players.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#120 - 2013-06-19 02:41:28 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Shizuken wrote:

Yeah except with one dude with a cloak it is not a matter of outsmarting him, it is a matter of being around on the rare chance he makes a tactical or navigation error. Me and about 6 of my alliance mates spent a good portion of last saturday hunting down one dude in a stealth bomber who was anomaly hopping but would tuck tail if so much as a drone was afoot. While this might seem like he was a "non-threat" he could hit or miss, we couldnt miss once. He had all the power. Were we to treat him as a non-threat he could quickly inflict massive ISK damage.

So I ask you this. Do you think it is fair that one guy can spend his $15/month to sequester the enjoyment of 7 people for a total $105, while we have no technical way to hunt, track, or eliminate him. Cloaking needs a soft counter. Because right now it causes too much disruption for too little investment.


Don't really see how this guy was an AFK cloaker. Just a cloaker. And if he uncloaks in a bomber he can be pointed and killed in short order. Like you, I would have spent my time trying to kill him. With friends, would have tried to set up some bait, maybe my own cloaky ships to get him. Could have spent all my day's game time doing that and felt like I had fun whether we killed him or not.

If 7 of you can't take on one cloaky frigate, I'm not entirely sure the fault is his.


It is not a matter of being able to inflict enough damage, it is getting the opportunity to do so. You have to wait for him to **** up before you can attack.

He was not an afk cloaker, but therein lies the problem. Whether a cloaker is AFK or not, as a player you must treat them equally. The initiative favors the cloaker. He could log on, go to sunday school, watch the bears game, and eat a sandwich. All the while, as defending players we have to be on the lookout and searching. At any time the dude could come back to his computer and start to actually play.

Here is the problem with local chat. When people complain about it, they do so not because they are mad that they can see other players in system, it is that other players can see them, automatically, with no effort expended. In my example above, when the afk cloaker comes back to play he can instantly see who is in the system. With no local chat, the moment he gets back to his computer he would then have to spend time and effort to actually locate targets, just as anyone hunting him would. It puts the cloaker and the defender on an even footing. Rather than giving the cloaker a blanket opportunity to harass people just by being logged in.