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I totally just became a "Holder", but it's inconvenient. What to do?

Author
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#1 - 2013-06-18 11:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kim Ji-Young
I follow the Disciples Of Ston's thread with interest. I think it's nice that they care about the dumping of unwanted property enough to go and clean up other people's mess. Sort of like the galaxy's friendly garbage collectors, putting things in the bin so you don't have to. Isn't that lovely of them. Let's all pay our respects to their valuable service of cleaning the spacelanes so jetcans don't dent our Impairors.

However, I was curious to see someone accuse them recently of fabricating the whole thing: "but people don't really dump slaves in jetcans to die", someone said. Gosh, now that's a hefty accusation given that that's what their whole operation is based around. Of course, what would I know about it? I never even go out that way, so for me it's one person's word against another. So because I like knowing stuff and being correct, I thought I'd jump into my latest fun vessel the Retriever "Cheoeum Cheoreom" and go to take a look out where the Stonsters said there was a lot of slave dumping going on, to see what was really happening.

Sure enough, it didn't take long before I found a suspect-looking jetcan. I cruised on up to it to take a look, and sure enough, scans revealed there was a slave in there - looks like the Stontronics were right. Only one though, and a mightily disappointed slave too, I might add - the look on his face when he saw my crew wasn't very welcoming. I wonder if word has spread and he was expecting the Stonomatics instead (who I didn't see in space when I was there), but in any event he would have died out there if nobody came, so a little bit of gratitude really wouldn't have gone astray. Luckily I'm the forgiving sort. Anyway I couldn't just exactly leave him there to die - that would be very cruel and I couldn't live with myself, so I took him on board.

I guess that now makes me a "Holder" doesn't it. I don't feel very exalted though, in fact it worries me. I don't have the facilities to keep a slave - they need cleaning, proper clothes (you should see the filthy rags on this guy) and some kind of work to do, which I really don't have much of. Let's face it, there isn't much work out there these days on a starship for someone only capable of pushing a broom in front of them. There's only so many times you can get someone to clean a corridoor in a day before it just becomes pointless busywork.

So I've been running through the options available, here's what I got, from most to least preferred, with pros and cons for each:

1. Turn him over to an Amarr loyalist organisation (PIE or similar)

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. I can sleep soundly knowing that PIE or a similar organisation would give him only the best facilities and treatment
c. Amarr loyalists may know his original owner and punish him appropriately for careless rubbish dumping

but

d. Do they really want him? He's kind of rude and unpleasant and I would feel bad burdening a morally upstanding organisation with such a noz especially one that probably already has plenty of things to do on their plate
e. Give his extreme ungratefulness a slave's lifestyle working for only the best Amarr organisations in the galaxy is arguably a better fate than he deserves

2. Hello airlock

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. Justice is served (he was so rude, like, seriously)
c. It would honestly be kind of funny

but

d. I don't like blood and guts and stuff, it's gross
e. I'm not sure about the legalities of doing such a thing, probably comes up as "vandalism" under Amarr law and I'm not a lawbreaker kind of person
f. Seems like a waste of precious resources

3. Turn him over to Disciples Of Ston.

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. Ston would probably be happy to have him
c. He's kind of rude and surly and the thought of him and Ston interacting amuses me

but

d. Ston would probably "educate" him which would probably mean making him listen to ten hour lectures about how "war is so very very bad oh gosh it's so bad make sure you never kill anyone ever or you are a BAD PERSON BAD BAD BAD" and that surely has to be worse punishment than mopping a floor. Could I live with myself knowing he would be going through this mental torture because of me?
e. Seems like a waste of precious resources


4. Sell the slave on the open market

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. More ISK means happy

but

c. This guy has no market value, seriously
d. I might get a reputation for selling inferior quality product

5. Try to find his true owner

a. He's out of my face (assuming I'm successful), one less problem
b. The thought of the idiot who dumped him getting stuck with him again seems like poetic justice

but

c. I've got no way to verify the owner (the slave is very stubborn and isn't giving up any info AND YES I FORGOT TO LOOK ON THE CAN OKAY)
d. Who says the owner is going to willingly take him back even if I do find them
e. Seems like a hassle, I've got better things to do

6. Accept the slave into my life

a. I can say "I'm a Holder" at parties and increase my standing among the elite of Amarr society
b. My parents will be happy that their daughter finally did something responsible for once in her life
c. Reactions on IGS if I did this would be amusing

but

d. As previously mentioned I don't really have any facilities for this, or anything for him to do
e. He's such a knobend, if I absolutely must own a slave I'd like to think I can do better than this one
f. I'd probably get anti-slaver organisations getting all angsty and taking industrial action, refusing my Kim Bap, etc and I could kiss that overdue delivery from Native Freshfood goodbye.

7. Set him free

a. He's out of my face, one less problem

but

b. Just kidding, I wouldn't do this. Are you for real?

Thoughts below, ok go
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-06-18 11:25:23 UTC
Why do you draw breath?

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#3 - 2013-06-18 11:37:23 UTC
Halete wrote:
Why do you draw breath?


Cheer up, sunshine.
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#4 - 2013-06-18 11:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kim Ji-Young
EDIT: Added to original post to keep things neat and stuff.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#5 - 2013-06-18 12:03:22 UTC
Quote:
c. I've got no way to verify the owner (the slave is very stubborn and isn't giving up any info AND YES I FORGOT TO LOOK ON THE CAN OKAY)


GIven that he has no legal papers of any kind...


Kim Ji-Young wrote:
Oh I forgot another option I had been considering:

Sell the slave on the open market

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. More ISK means happy

but

c. This guy has no market value, seriously
d. I might get a reputation for selling inferior quality product

In terms of preference I'd say I'd rate this option lower than Ston but higher than trying to track down who originally owned this pleb.


In this scenario, you might want to liquify him on one of the black markets, instead of using the regular open one.

Let me know if you decide to do so. I know certain people.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#6 - 2013-06-18 12:08:23 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Quote:
c. I've got no way to verify the owner (the slave is very stubborn and isn't giving up any info AND YES I FORGOT TO LOOK ON THE CAN OKAY)


GIven that he has no legal papers of any kind...


Kim Ji-Young wrote:
Oh I forgot another option I had been considering:

Sell the slave on the open market

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. More ISK means happy

but

c. This guy has no market value, seriously
d. I might get a reputation for selling inferior quality product

In terms of preference I'd say I'd rate this option lower than Ston but higher than trying to track down who originally owned this pleb.


In this scenario, you might want to liquify him on one of the black markets, instead of using the regular open one.

Let me know if you decide to do so. I know certain people.


When you say "liquify" do you mean that metaphorically (as in liquidating assets) , or literally (as in making a human slushie)? Because that's just weird. In any event I'm not sure that I would go down this path anyway, seems a bit shady and I'm the honest above-board non-shady type.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#7 - 2013-06-18 12:21:40 UTC
Kim Ji-Young wrote:

When you say "liquify" do you mean that metaphorically (as in liquidating assets) , or literally (as in making a human slushie)? Because that's just weird. In any event I'm not sure that I would go down this path anyway, seems a bit shady and I'm the honest above-board non-shady type.


Liquidating assets.
If you are looking for a literal alternative, you'll have to find a Blood Raider; I don't socialize with those kind of people.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#8 - 2013-06-18 12:22:21 UTC
Just curious why handing him over to the Sisters of EVE did not make your list of possible options?

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#9 - 2013-06-18 12:24:57 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Kim Ji-Young wrote:

When you say "liquify" do you mean that metaphorically (as in liquidating assets) , or literally (as in making a human slushie)? Because that's just weird. In any event I'm not sure that I would go down this path anyway, seems a bit shady and I'm the honest above-board non-shady type.


Liquidating assets.
If you are looking for a literal alternative, you'll have to find a Blood Raider; I don't socialize with those kind of people.


Yeah nah. Neither do I.

Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Just curious why handing him over to the Sisters of EVE did not make your list of possible options?


I don't know enough about Sisters of EVE to work out where that option would sit on my list of preferences. What do you think would happen to the slave if I took him there?
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#10 - 2013-06-18 14:15:29 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Kim Ji-Young wrote:

When you say "liquify" do you mean that metaphorically (as in liquidating assets) , or literally (as in making a human slushie)? Because that's just weird. In any event I'm not sure that I would go down this path anyway, seems a bit shady and I'm the honest above-board non-shady type.


Liquidating assets.
If you are looking for a literal alternative, you'll have to find a Blood Raider; I don't socialize with those kind of people.


I've heard rumours about the Serps experimenting with that in their more deranged moments as a narcotic base, but that might just be fiction.
Ninusi UbarSarum
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2013-06-18 14:32:35 UTC
I am sure the SPCS is willing to take on the estranged asset.

Additionally, you are not a holder as you lack proper papers and status. However, you might be at risk of being accused of illegally harboring slaves. "I got these slaves from some random cannister in space, but forgot to see who it belonged to" isn't a very convincing argument.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-06-18 14:51:36 UTC
Captain Ji-Young, I'm afraid that under amarrian law you can't hold the slave as you are not a Holder. Only Holders can, and they earn their titles by heritage or by doing deeds for their superiors, not by obtaining slaves. You can have the slave right now because us capsuleers are under CONCORD jurisdiction, but it is illegal under amarrian law. The Ministry of Internal Order explained a few months ago that, if you wish to have slaves, a Holder can transfer the tutorship of a specific slave or slaves to your care, but they have to be theirs.

So, if I were you, I'd hand him over to the approrpriate authorities in the Ministry or Theology Council.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg
Like Oh My Gosh I Totally Have A Corp Now
#13 - 2013-06-18 15:03:42 UTC
Okay so this is my idea;

So first off give him some clothes, right? And like, make sure he has extra pairs of clean underwear! Then pack him a lunch. Include plenty of Quafe 'cos he's gonna get hungry! And like, then you like, give him stuff, I dunno like, like a solar-powered datapad or something. So like, he can get directions and stuff and maybe like look at Quafe models or something if he's all bored and stuff. Then give him like a Nova knife I guess, I dunno, like whatever~! ♥

Then you send him into the tall grass to strike out on his own super slave adventure! And like, it'll be so cool because like, maybe they'll make a Holoreel all about it in years or something. And they'll have a scene where like slave man is all dying and I'll be crying but then he'll take a mouthful of Quafe and get all invigorated and jazz and leap heroically back into action and I'll be crying even more, ugh.

Chilled Quafe™, accept no refreshment substitute. For all of you affluent Capsuleer-types, Quafe Elite™ restaraunts can be found at many stations! Only got a few minutes to spare before that fleet-op? Swing by QuafeSnacks™ for the full taste-experience you've come to expect from Quafe, on the go!

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2013-06-18 15:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Kim Ji-Young wrote:
IAnyway I couldn't just exactly leave him there to die - that would be very cruel and I couldn't live with myself, so I took him on board.

I guess that now makes me a "Holder" doesn't it.


Expounding on what Cpt. UbarSarum and Lieutenant Catillah already said, Cpt. Kim, having a slave in your possession doesn't mean that you're the legal owner of the slave and that the slave is your property. Nor does being in possession of a slave mean that you're a Holder.

One doesn't become a Holder (capitalized H) by acquiring slaves. A Holder is part of the ruling class of nobility in the Empire and one acquires this status either by inheritance or by being appointed as such by a noble able to grant such, that might - but does rarely - include being ennobled from a prior status as commoner. A Holder doesn't need per se to hold slaves, but of course it is a spiritual duty of each holder to do his utmost to spread the faith, which typically includes holding slaves.

In the Empire, typically, the only legal permanent slave owners, that is persons with the right to keep slaves as their property, are Holders with only few exception existing in the hierarchy of the military of the Empire and within the higher rungs of the clerical hierarchy.

Kim Ji-Young wrote:
I don't feel very exalted though, in fact it worries me. I don't have the facilities to keep a slave - they need cleaning, proper clothes (you should see the filthy rags on this guy) and some kind of work to do, which I really don't have much of. Let's face it, there isn't much work out there these days on a starship for someone only capable of pushing a broom in front of them. There's only so many times you can get someone to clean a corridoor in a day before it just becomes pointless busywork.


As a citizen of the Empire your worries shouldn't be about providing for the slave, given the above reasons: Your worry should at first be to determine whether the 'slave' you picked up is legally a slave by Empire law or not. If not, he needs to be set free according to regulations. If he is a slave by Empire law, you need to find out about the actual legal owner of the slave and return the slave to the given Holder.

Kim Ji-Young wrote:
So I've been running through the options available, here's what I got, from most to least preferred, with pros and cons for each:


1. Turn him over to an Amarr loyalist organisation (PIE or similar)

If your're unsure how to go about the points I raised above, this is a good option. I'm certain within PIE there someone will have the experience with such issues and be willing to go through the appropriate steps in regard to the person you picked up. As Cpt. UbarSarum pointed out, the SPCS is equipped to handle such a case as well.

2. Hello airlock

I advise strongly against this procedure, pending on the status of the person you picked up there you will be committing a crime of varying degree.

3. Turn him over to Disciples Of Ston.

If you found the person you've to deal with now in imperial space, you are probably committing a crime as well. Stonites are known heretics and transferring a slave by Empire law to them is therefore alone anathema, and even more so if the slave isn't your property. If the person is not a slave by law you're engaging in illegal human trafficking as well as in dealing with heretics.

4. Sell the slave on the open market

The capsuleer slave market is not quite as tightly regulated as the proper slave market of the Empire. Therefore I'd suggest before selling the slave you better assure the status of the person you have to deal with by Empire law as pointed out above.

5. Try to find his true owner

Given the above considerations, this is what I'd suggest to do, if it turns out that the person is a slave by imperial law and you feel up to the bureaucratic tasks. If not your first consideration is, as I already pointed out a good alternative.

6. Accept the slave into my life

Again, I advise against this as long as the true legal status of said 'slave' isn't determined. Even if he's a slave by Empire law, you'd have to acquire a specific contract with the legal owner of the slave to keep him in your possession by imperial law.

7. Set him free

Legally, if he's a Slave by imperial law, you can't set the slave free unless you're the lawful owner. Thus you'd brand the 'slave', if he turn out to be one by law, as a runaway if you just set him free and he himself then doesn't try to return to his lawful owner. If he is a free person to begin with, simply setting him free will probably pose little problem, I'd be sure to check beforehand, though (as pointed out above).

I hope this advice helps you.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#15 - 2013-06-18 15:27:35 UTC
Halete wrote:
Why do you draw breath?

It would seem, none of the institutes that train and outfit capsuleers bother to screen applicants: background checks and psychological profiling and the like. The only requirement seems to be the ability to use capsuleer implants and a low likelihood of wetgraving.

That would explain the poor quality of a large portion of capsuleers (though at times, I wonder what sort of correlation installation of implants or the compatibility with them has with the incidence of sociopathy, since many of us are certifiably batshit)
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#16 - 2013-06-18 15:30:20 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Kim Ji-Young wrote:

When you say "liquify" do you mean that metaphorically (as in liquidating assets) , or literally (as in making a human slushie)? Because that's just weird. In any event I'm not sure that I would go down this path anyway, seems a bit shady and I'm the honest above-board non-shady type.


Liquidating assets.
If you are looking for a literal alternative, you'll have to find a Blood Raider; I don't socialize with those kind of people.



...Bai'xao Meiyi?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-06-18 15:39:25 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:

That would explain the poor quality of a large portion of capsuleers (though at times, I wonder what sort of correlation installation of implants or the compatibility with them has with the incidence of sociopathy, since many of us are certifiably batshit)


Certifiably batshit? Quite. And if the standards of debate around here serves as any indicator, that is the only certification most capsuleers hold before receiving their license.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-06-18 16:34:32 UTC
The best solution is obvious: he should set himself free.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2013-06-18 16:45:06 UTC
Kim Ji-Young wrote:


1. Turn him over to an Amarr loyalist organisation (PIE or similar)

a. He's out of my face, one less problem
b. I can sleep soundly knowing that PIE or a similar organisation would give him only the best facilities and treatment
c. Amarr loyalists may know his original owner and punish him appropriately for careless rubbish dumping

but

d. Do they really want him? He's kind of rude and unpleasant and I would feel bad burdening a morally upstanding organisation with such a noz especially one that probably already has plenty of things to do on their plate
e. Give his extreme ungratefulness a slave's lifestyle working for only the best Amarr organisations in the galaxy is arguably a better fate than he deserves


PIE are accredited by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Slaves, so they are a good home for unwanted guest workers.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-06-18 16:50:53 UTC
It's a grudge match! Young and the Ston-ites in a contest for least relevant, most idiotic waste of potential.

Whoever wins, we lose.



Sabik now, Sabik forever

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