Intergalactic Summit

I will be sure to remind you of that when you and your ilk howl equally loudly should the Federation ever invade and attack a system of yours without any justification.

"Oh, us slaughtering thousands of you outside of a declared war isn't murder. It's just a battle, which totally doesn't justify you replying in kind. Or heaven forbid, demanding the extradition of the responsible parties for trial. You should just stop complaining and accept it."

Doesn't that sound the slightest bit absurd to you?

And from your own definition lets see what we can infer -

Premeditation:

Crossing the border while armed to the teeth sure sounds like premeditation to me. I dont know what possible arguments the Republic could have against this, I'm sure Musana will enlighten us in the fullness of time but I feel like giving it a try *ahem*

"Oh no your honor! We didn't go there with the intent to kill anybody, it's all a huge misunderstanding. We only brought the fleet of dreadnoughts because the shuttles and mammoths we had lined up suddenly broke down. We were in so much of a rush to get to Colelie and back in time for dinner that we didn't have time to unfit those extra large turrets and siege modules."

If that wasn't enough - the Republic forces were repeatedly asked to withdraw throughout the incident, and repeatedly refused to do so. This demonstrates that violence wasn't just something they were prepared to resort to if they felt unhappy, it was the reason they were there at all.

Unlawful killing:

Crossing the border without permission - That's illegal, according to any sovereign nation. The Republic had no right to be where they were.

Firing on Naval forces when challenged and ordered to withdraw - also illegal, again, according to any sovereign nation. The Republic fired first. From that point on the Federation Navy was not only legally permitted to return fire in self defense, they were required to do so in defense of the Border and to uphold the law.

There is no state of war. There is no circumstance that makes the killings of the Navy personnel anything but unlawful.


So yes, Musana, it was by your own definition murder.


I can only conclude Musana is out to demonstrate what we often try to avoid talking about - that if you're looking for the most racist people in New Eden, you'll find them inside the Republic. It's evident in her black and white world view. Ingrained in her attitudes is a determined and sincere belief in the primacy of her blood, or "kin" as they often say. She'll defend the indefensible, and argue day was night based on that nasty conceit "Republic good, everyone else bad"

You're right, it does nothing to resolve the situation, nor do I believe it should be merely forgotten, even if it can be. There is a lot to learn from Colelie, and a lot that is still unknown about why it happened. That does not mean that it needs to be constantly brought up in the manner you seem to insist on bring it up, with constant accusations that someone who claims no defense for the actions is claiming defense for the actions.

I do have some idea why you continue to bring it up, but I doubt I fully understand your reasoning since I'm not you.



A Gallentean making accusations of condescension and arrogance.

I notice how you skipped over the second part of what defines murder as murder. Premeditation. The battle at Colelie was not a premeditated act with the intention of killing Federation soldiers. The fleet's purpose was to retrieve the shooter. The battle happened as a result of that attempt, but it was not premeditated. It was not murder.

And yes, who the victor is does matter. For one, the fact that we lost so decisively means we did not put a Federation fleet to the sword.

If a Federation capital fleet entered Matari space and proceeded to lose as badly as our own fleet lost at Colelie, no, I would not call it murder. I would call it a serious offense and a tragedy, which is what I call Colelie, and I would be very insistent on knowing why the Federation chose to send a fleet, just as I am very insistent on knowing exactly why the Tribal Council chose to send a fleet into Colelie.



The bolded text is an assumption on your part. Until the Council chooses to reveal their reasons for making the decision to send in that fleet, you cannot legitimately make any statement of fact as to why the fleet was sent in.



No, that's not premeditation. It might be a bad idea. It might be an "act of war." But it is not premeditation for murder. The intent of the fleet was not to kill Federation soldiers. The intent of an armed fleet would've been to intimidate the Federation into not trying to stop them as they pursued their goal of retrieving the shooter. Clearly it did not accomplish that goal.

I insist on bringing it up because it needs to be resolved, in one way or another. I bring it up because within the Federation we have a tradition of expressing our opinions, and our elected leaders take those opinions into account. Instead of, as some have suggested, keeping quiet and letting our leaders hash it out, I bring it up to inform those leaders as they hash it out.

Where you are concerned, Pilot Musana, I also bring it up because, despite your insistance that you feel quite strongly that the attack was wrong and that it was a major international incident, you fly in an alliance that has publicly stated that they participated in the battle on behalf of the Republic Fleet, and has given no indication that they would behave differently in the future. In addition, when we read your own extremely frequently stated views on Republic-Federation relations, you resort to this:



It strikes me, from reading what you write, that you consider Gallentean views of the Minmatar and the Republic to be a far more pressing problem. And so, I bring Colelie up in response to your own writing because I do not feel that to be the case.

In any case, it also strikes me that you do not see a way forward for the Republic and the Federation together. You do not offer solutions. You instead continue to argue that the Republic are oppressed - culturally, economically, politically - by the Federation, and leave it at that. I still maintain that we both agree on the solution to our mutual issues.



Of course not. It merely provides an internationally accepted rationale for any response, up to and including a declaration of war. I would prefer that the Federation and the Republic not go to war, but I am highly in favor with the Federation dissolving its current alliance with the Republic.

As far as my apparent desire to dissolve it quickly, an examination of the timelines does not bear this out: Today it has been over a month since the battle of Colelie. From the Republic, we hear nothing of it. From the looks of it, Shakor would happily forget about it and move on. On the other hand, it wasn't even two weeks from the time that the Federation denied a pre-trial extradition of Broteau to the Republic and the time the Republic Fleet crossed the border to forcibly take him.

For the record, then: I am in favor of the Federation dissolving its alliance with the Republic. I believe that at the highest levels of Republic leadership there is no desire to reconcile with the Federation. Because of this, and because of a consistent history of the Shakor administration to disregard any and all treaties and alliances, I believe that there is a clear and present danger of Republic strikes against the Federation despite the existing treaties and despite the Republic being a member of CONCORD.

The song drifts through the air.
They dance his dance, gracefully.
He knows the ending positions.

This couldn't be any more scripted. I almost want to try to stop it. But it is a good thing that this pain comes. With it follows growth. Into the Master's embrace.

Nevermind, double post.

You make many accusations but provide no proof. Care to provide corroboration for your accusations or are you content to merely spew unverifiable nonsense?

Yes, a death toll in the tens of thousands qualifies as a back-stab. How nice that you think you can tell us what does and not qualify as a betrayal though. Who's the arrogant ones here again?

Matari people defending our borders...I presume you mean the enlisted men and women of Matari descent in the Federation military? Are we to be blamed for giving citizenship and all the implied rights and responsibilities to the Matari diaspora? Truly, we are monstrous, with our civil rights, and universal suffrage.

Fighting the Amarr Empire on our behalf? You mean the same Empire that enslaved your people? Must've really had to twist your arm to do that, eh?

What is this nonsense about cheap mercs and not doing our parts. I would remind you we defend our borders just fine with no Republic help. I see you also forget the countless Gallente who have died in the defense of your people and country, members of my family among them. Not to mention the billions of isk in aid we have poured into helping you. All to little benefit for us. Yes, your friendship was purchased so very cheaply.

I cannot disagree with you on the actual handling of the case however. the Federation acted beyond idiotically. Doesn't change the fact that the Republic acted the part of the fool as well.

It doesn't?

Do you even know what 'fratricide' means? Killing your own brother. Forget the politics, forget the grand nations, let's pretend that the Federation and the Republic are two ordinary people. Brothers who have fought together, worked together, had their differences but always stood by each others' side.

And then one brother has something the other wants, and the other stabs him to try and get it. Doesn't kill him, but inflicts pain and misery.

Sounds like a betrayal to me. There's even a story like that in the scriptures as a warning of the price of such actions. Never mind the religion, though. Tell me, Cipher, how would your Tribal law deal with such a scenario?

It seems the Federation goodwill was again repaid with Republic hospitality.

Ma'am, fratricide is a military term denoting blue-on-blue contact.

It is a statistic in every armed service in the universe.

I think killing your brother is abhorent.