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Federation expresses dismay at Republic handling of Broteau
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iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#41 - 2013-06-17 12:07:43 UTC
Endeavour, if you truly expected him to return from the trial in Matari space, you are foolhardy and naive.

Any 'official outrage' over this is nothing more than a show, a façade to make people think that the senate did not know that this would be the outcome.

Furthermore, you do not speak for 'the people of the federation'. I will wait to see what their response is first hand.
Going to war with the Matari over a murderer who's entire plan appears to have been an attempt to force a wedge between the Federation and Republic though is NOT an option.

That was Broteau's intent. The best possible outcome now, is for our two peoples to return to the alliance we had before, making his actions futile and consigning his memory to history. Just another murderer who got caught.

-Tertianus Rethelior ('Rok)

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Endeavour Starfleet
#42 - 2013-06-17 12:16:03 UTC
Actually war is quite an option. And yet again another sweeping under the rug of the thousands of federation military who died from a REPUBLIC invasion eh? Just what I expect from Republic apologists.

War was an option the moment those Dreads jumped in. War was even more of an option the moment they opened fire on the Federation. War was then even more of an option when the Federation BEGGED them to stop and return to Republic space.

The Republic has proven that they can't be trusted. If war or ending our efforts to divert the Amarr from the Republic is needed it needs to be known that the Federation will be willing to do so to protect its sovereignty against a rouge nation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-06-17 12:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Fourteen life sentences sounds much like a death sentence to me.


Yes, living until old age takes you is 'much like' being shot down in the prime of your life.


The outcome is the same - the inmate dies in the custody of a lawful authority. The rest of their existence, however long that time may be, will be spent incarcerated. You put somebody away for that long, you're taking their "prime of life" away regardless and condemning them to death in a penitentiary.

Today by firing squad, in a week's time by prison shank, in twelve years' time from a beating, or in seventy years' time from cancer, does it really matter how much longer they continue to have a pulse for? Their life is over anyway. In which case the public coffers may as well be spared the burden of feeding, clothing and medicking them for the remainder of their duration.

As for the Eturrer comment - I was simply noting the irony inherent in condemning the Republic for lawfully and humanely executing a convicted murderer versus the total absence of any Senatorial objections to an unlawful and breathtakingly cruel death performed at home.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#44 - 2013-06-17 12:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: iyammarrok
Funny, I did not mention Coelile at all.

The mistakes of that day have been decried from both sides as unrepeatable, yet you are saying that we should lose tens of thousands more lives, or give up the freedom of an entire people for what exactly?

Petty vengeance? That will not undo the mistake that was made.
Moving on will at least allow them to rest and does not play into the hands of the terrorist who started it all.
That said, having looked at your CONCORD profile, you would appear to be in favour of criminal acts.

let me be a little clearer...

you say that the federation should invade the republic, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.
because : the republic invaded the federation, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.

but your wish is 'far' more justifiable than theirs. Hypocrite.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#45 - 2013-06-17 12:26:17 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Actually war is quite an option. And yet again another sweeping under the rug of the thousands of federation military who died from a REPUBLIC invasion eh? Just what I expect from Republic apologists.

War was an option the moment those Dreads jumped in. War was even more of an option the moment they opened fire on the Federation. War was then even more of an option when the Federation BEGGED them to stop and return to Republic space.

The Republic has proven that they can't be trusted. If war or ending our efforts to divert the Amarr from the Republic is needed it needs to be known that the Federation will be willing to do so to protect its sovereignty against a rouge nation.


Wait, uh, hold on a second there. We're diverting the Amarr from the Republic? That would be tremendous news to the Republic militias, and to the Matari victims of Amarran slaver-fleets.

I can't wait, when do we start doing this diverting?

... I have to admit, I was cynical. It seemed to me that the Federation was using the Republic as a picket against the only serious threat to their existence in the cluster, the much larger and rather warlike Empire, trusting that the (extremely well-founded) Minmatar sense of historical grievance would suffice to bleed Amarrian warfleets.

However, I'm happy to hear from you that this was all unnecessary doom and gloom on my part.
Endeavour Starfleet
#46 - 2013-06-17 12:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
iyammarrok wrote:
Funny, I did not mention Coelile at all.

The mistakes of that day have been decried from both sides as unrepeatable, yet you are saying that we should lose tens of thousands more lives, or give up the freedom of an entire people for what exactly?

Petty vengeance? That will not undo the mistake that was made.
Moving on will at least allow them to rest and does not play into the hands of the terrorist who started it all.
That said, having looked at your CONCORD profile, you would appear to be in favour of criminal acts.

let me be a little clearer...

you say that the federation should invade the republic, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.
because : the republic invaded the federation, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.

but your wish is 'far' more justifiable than theirs. Hypocrite.


Invading the Republic would not be an act of vengeance. But a measure meant to prove to the cluster that the federation treats its sovereignty very seriously. Seriously enough that the government attempted to show patience by extraditing the criminal in good faith. Now that the Republic spat in the face of that. Additional measures up to and including invasion my be needed to show that invading the Federation and killing federation navy will not be ignored. It is a sad day to note that the Amarr were far more willing to mend things after the failed heir invasion than the far weaker Republic.

Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to see Republic Citizens killed. Yet they may be better off not having a government that simply refuses to respect the sovereignty of its allies.
Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
#47 - 2013-06-17 12:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Narcisa De Fontaine
Stitcher wrote:


As for the Eturrer comment - I was simply noting the irony inherent in condemning the Republic for lawfully and humanely executing a convicted murderer versus the total absence of any Senatorial objections to an unlawful and breathtakingly cruel death performed at home.



I really don't give a **** about Broteau, but I have no problem in saying what happened to Eturrer was wrong. It should not have happened that way. I'd never been much for Foiritan before, and certainly not afterward.

The pattern of justifying any wrong one does by pointing out something *worse* from another person or society is deeply disingenuous. The Federation is not perfect and despite what people say, I don't feel it ever claimed to be. Ideally, we have to strive to admit past mistakes and swear not to repeat them.

I am sure that the Federation is capable of this. I wish I could say the same for the Republic.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#48 - 2013-06-17 12:48:54 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:
Funny, I did not mention Coelile at all.

The mistakes of that day have been decried from both sides as unrepeatable, yet you are saying that we should lose tens of thousands more lives, or give up the freedom of an entire people for what exactly?

Petty vengeance? That will not undo the mistake that was made.
Moving on will at least allow them to rest and does not play into the hands of the terrorist who started it all.
That said, having looked at your CONCORD profile, you would appear to be in favour of criminal acts.

let me be a little clearer...

you say that the federation should invade the republic, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.
because : the republic invaded the federation, in an act born of a wish for vengeance.

but your wish is 'far' more justifiable than theirs. Hypocrite.


Invading the Republic would not be an act of vengeance. But a measure meant to prove to the cluster that the federation treats its sovereignty very seriously. Seriously enough that the government attempted to show patience by extraditing the criminal in good faith. Now that the Republic spat in the face of that. Additional measures up to and including invasion my be needed to show that invading the Federation and killing federation navy will not be ignored. It is a sad day to note that the Amarr were far more willing to mend things after the failed heir invasion than the far weaker Republic.

Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to see Republic Citizens killed. Yet they may be better off not having a government that simply refuses to respect the sovereignty of its allies.


The murderer was extradited to a place where the death penalty is commonly used for murder, to stand trial for murder. His execution was EXPECTED. what about that can't you get your head around?
how has the Sebiestor tribe (not the republic, the tribe) spat in the face of the Federation? They were given carte blanche to mete out whatever justice they saw fit. They have done so.

Now, I know it can't be your sensibilities regarding the death penalty that cause you to be so offended, considering your security status.

In recent years the Federation has been 'invaded' three times, None of these events have resulted in a counter-invasion. Not when the Amarr or Caldari attacked us with MUCH larger forces.
So why, in the name of sanity, would we attack the Republic for sending a much smaller fleet under FAR more emotionally charged circumstances?

Reparations may be required, but these things take time.

A mistake was made, while you may claim otherwise, you wish to see vengeance done, there is no other viable excuse to espouse the invasion of the republic.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Tamonash en Welle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-06-17 13:05:27 UTC
No, sorry, I still do not believe in the equation sign between life sentences, no matter how many there may be, and the death sentence. While I know especially veteran capsuleers tend to get an abstract view on the subject, the value of life should not be underestimated. Especially when life as inmate in the Federation in many cases is no worse than in an Amarrian plantation or as a common State worker, or so I have heard.

In any case, I see the blatant disregard by the Sebiestor Tribal Court to the actual sentence given by the Caille District Court as nothing else than 'giving us the finger'. That this Shakor guy then tries to further discredit the Federal jurisdictional system in a smug comment, is a finger more. Just as violating our space sovereignty, I might add.
Endeavour Starfleet
#50 - 2013-06-17 13:17:14 UTC
The Amarr and Caldari invasions were similar as they were pushed by insane people. The Amarr let the federation go into their territory to capture a scumbag as a way to mend things broken by an insane heir. The Caldari came to the table and worked out an agreement for their homeland that benefited both nations after Heth was virtually removed from his ability to stop such.

And for what do we get for trying to mend ties with the Republic? Spitting on our systems and good faith with a sham of a trial.

Atleast with the Caldari our brothers are slowly making attempts to end the hate that has divided us for so long.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-06-17 13:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Tamonash en Welle wrote:
life as inmate in the Federation in many cases is no worse than in an Amarrian plantation or as a common State worker, or so I have heard.


Line workers in the State have the same legal status as all other citizens, earn a living wage, have promotion opportunities, are in control of their career path and aren't being watched by armed guards, drones or slaver hounds. It may not be the most luxurious life in the world, but it's nothing like incarceration or enslavement. There's noticeably less razor wire involved.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-06-17 13:40:34 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The Amarr and Caldari invasions were similar as they were pushed by insane people. The Amarr let the federation go into their territory to capture a scumbag as a way to mend things broken by an insane heir. The Caldari came to the table and worked out an agreement for their homeland that benefited both nations after Heth was virtually removed from his ability to stop such.

And for what do we get for trying to mend ties with the Republic? Spitting on our systems and good faith with a sham of a trial.

Atleast with the Caldari our brothers are slowly making attempts to end the hate that has divided us for so long.


Five years separate the events regarding the Caldari, a similar amount of time separates the events regarding the Amarr.
You're railing for an invasion of Matar less than a month after the events you whine about
Perhaps, if nothing has happened in way of reparation in five years you will have a case, but right now, you have just pointed out why you are wrong. Congratulations.

Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.
Tamonash en Welle
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-06-17 13:58:30 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Tamonash en Welle wrote:
...


Line workers in the State have the same legal status as all other citizens, earn a living wage, have promotion opportunities, are in control of their career path and aren't being watched by armed guards, drones or slaver hounds. It may not be the most luxurious life in the world, but it's nothing like incarceration or enslavement. There's noticeably less razor wire involved.

If you say so.

The point still is; there a plenty of pretty awful ways of living out there in New Eden, or at least, ways of living that others consider awful. Does that mean we should or give us a right to shoot a bullet in their head to end their existence?
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#54 - 2013-06-17 14:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Tamonash en Welle wrote:
In any case, I see the blatant disregard by the Sebiestor Tribal Court to the actual sentence given by the Caille District Court as nothing else than 'giving us the finger'. That this Shakor guy then tries to further discredit the Federal jurisdictional system in a smug comment, is a finger more. Just as violating our space sovereignty, I might add.


The Federal Authorities handed him over to be tried and sentenced by the Sebiestor Court with the understanding that the sentence handed down in that court would take effect before the sentence handed down by the Caille District Court.

It has already been noted that Capital Punishment was the expected sentence from the Sebiestor Court given the nature of the crimes committed. Crimes, it should be noted, that the Caille Court had found Broteau guilty on also.

The Matari sentence was carried out first as agreed by the Federal Authorities. Where is the problem here?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-06-17 14:13:10 UTC
Tamonash en Welle wrote:
The point still is; there a plenty of pretty awful ways of living out there in New Eden, or at least, ways of living that others consider awful. Does that mean we should or give us a right to shoot a bullet in their head to end their existence?


If you're that enamoured of each individual person's right to keep having a pulse come what may, then I guess I can't argue with that.

I figure if you're removing that person from society altogether, why retain the financial burden? That money could be put to work more constructively. Collective good trumps individual welfare.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-06-17 15:29:13 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The Amarr and Caldari invasions were similar as they were pushed by insane people. The Amarr let the federation go into their territory to capture a scumbag as a way to mend things broken by an insane heir. The Caldari came to the table and worked out an agreement for their homeland that benefited both nations after Heth was virtually removed from his ability to stop such.

And for what do we get for trying to mend ties with the Republic? Spitting on our systems and good faith with a sham of a trial.

Atleast with the Caldari our brothers are slowly making attempts to end the hate that has divided us for so long.


Five years separate the events regarding the Caldari, a similar amount of time separates the events regarding the Amarr.
You're railing for an invasion of Matar less than a month after the events you whine about
Perhaps, if nothing has happened in way of reparation in five years you will have a case, but right now, you have just pointed out why you are wrong. Congratulations.

Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.


Did the Federation invade the State following the State taking Caldari Prime? No. Was limited war declared? Yes! Practically on that day! Why should the same not apply to the Republic?

Pilot Starfleet is not simply calling for war between the Republic and the Federation. She is mentioning it, because the Republic did commit an act of war, and the Federation certainly has casus belli for going to war over Colelie. She placed war on the far end of a spectrum of options that includes lesser reactions such as dropping Federation support of the Republic and ending treaties between the two governments.

I've seen this sort of posturing from Republicans and Shakorites ever since Colelie happened: People who feel that the Republic should be made to answer for the invasion are said that they are "whining" about it, are scoffed at, and are called fools. It's obvious by the arguments that this extends to the Federation as a whole. It certainly makes me feel that the Republic is still an ally worthy of support...

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Bai'xao Meiyi
#57 - 2013-06-17 15:54:09 UTC
Aurora Fatalis wrote:
Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg wrote:
I can't help but think like, that all of this could have been avoided if Quafe had just taken my suggestion to appease the Republic by releasing new flavors...

Maybe they will release new flavors anyway? ♥

Better late than never, right~?

Quafe Sabik - guaranteed to sate your bloodthirst! Now with more hemoglobin!


I endorse this product and or service.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#58 - 2013-06-17 16:04:16 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

As for the Eturrer comment - I was simply noting the irony inherent in condemning the Republic for lawfully and humanely executing a convicted murderer versus the total absence of any Senatorial objections to an unlawful and breathtakingly cruel death performed at home.


Eturrer's death was unique as he was made an example of for a very good reason. People can agree or disagree about anything related to his death, but senators and most people in power did not object because it was deserved, and ultimately a very poetic death at the end of the day.

Regardless, opinion around that event remain strong to this day, and people never fail to bring it up as some kind of universal counter argument to counter anything they like regarding anything said by a Federal or any objections they make to, well, anything.

Take this case for instance. "Oh, you expected to get him back to serve his time for all the people he killed in your lands? Well, TO BAD, we just shot him for *OUR* revenge so you can go sod off. Oh and you have no right to be angry with us for shooting him because you burn people alive on stage all the time, that's just well known facts, yeah?"

It's funny how your arguing that simply shooting him is more efficient than a life-time in jail. I happen to agree that a life-time sentence is rather wasteful, but that was not the issue, here, was there? No, the issue here was that the Republic simply killed him off when in fact the official understanding was that he would be sentenced in the Republic because his crimes involved said government as well, but that he would be handed back.

Now, I don't know what kind of fit of naivety overcame the people who handed him over, (I don't think any of us expected anything different once we got the news he was being sent to the Republic) but they did, and once again Federation rights and proceedings has been spat upon for the sake of the REPUBLIC's feelings. It is yet another "To hell with you, we will get what WE want." sentiment.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#59 - 2013-06-17 16:10:58 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Collective good trumps individual welfare.


Where you are from, this is true.

NOT SO MUCH HERE.

There is a large gap of difference to be found here.
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#60 - 2013-06-17 16:21:46 UTC
The man killed a chieftain in a Minmatar cultural festival, and lest we forget he killed numerous others as well. Let the Minmatar have their justice. It boggles my mind sometimes why my own kind whine over things like this.

"Justice is the only thing that was served here. To extend this trial for the sake of allowing the accused to offer an ineffective defense would have made it a mockery."

Well said Shakor, the man had his chance.. no need to let the man live any longer for his atrocities.