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rapid light missile launchers.
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Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2013-06-15 21:00:44 UTC
arent rapid light missile launchers intented to work on cruisers > bc`s?sad thing is i think only caracal has bonus for them from all the sub bs missile platforms.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-15 21:04:16 UTC
They are cruiser sized anti frigate weapons.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-06-15 21:06:36 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
They are cruiser sized anti frigate weapons.


i ment fitt on CR>BC`s platforms.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#4 - 2013-06-15 21:08:48 UTC
Nighthawk does too

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-06-15 21:10:36 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Nighthawk does too


you are right lol.nighthawk does have bonus for rapid
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-06-15 21:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Maybe they're not supposed to be skill bonused most of the time, but are really just for utility highs with launcher hardpoints, with their rate of fire increase to make up for the lack of skill bonus? So for instance, you could fly a Tempest with 6 battleship projectile turrets, and with your flight of medium drones. When you wanna hit a small target, you swap to small drones and use the 2 rapid light missile launchers to supplement that drone dps. It's effectively almost like having 8 small guns hitting them, so this tempest hits small stuff almost like a destroyer without skill bonuses.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#7 - 2013-06-16 03:01:55 UTC
3 seconds is a ROF bonus?
give me a break

to me, if its twice the size, holds twice as much, it should be able to fire twice as fast. that thing should unload light missiles.
and all missile boats of cruiser and bc size that can fire them (and has missile bonuses) should get a bonus for light missiles just the same.

15 second rof vs a 12 sec rof?

oooo thats a lot.

seriously. drop the rof of light missile launcher to about 10 seconds and give all cruisers who get heavy missile bonuses light missile bonuses too so they can use these for anti tackle support.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#8 - 2013-06-16 03:29:43 UTC
Because "unloading" light missiles wouldn't be broken at all. Nope. Not even a little. No broken stuff here.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-16 06:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Mole Guy wrote:
15 second rof vs a 12 sec rof?

oooo thats a lot.
It's a 25% dps bonus, equivalent to what you get out of the increased damage skill bonus at skill level 5.

Lowering the fire time to 10s would be a 50% dps increase. If you wanted a 33.33% dps increase to be in line with a standard rate of fire skill bonus at skill 5, you should push for 11.25s rate of fire. But that might be overpowered considering some ships do get a damage bonus to these.

Getting a 25% dps bonus with base rate of fire and a 33.33% dps bonus from rate of fire skill bonus (Caracal), you get a net dps bonus of 66.67%. This makes 5 fully bonused rapid light missile launchers on a Caracal equal in dps to 8.33 unbonused light missile launchers. If the rapid light missile launcher has a fire time of 11.25s, or 10s, it would be equal in dps to 8.89 or 10 unbonused light missile launchers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sigras
Conglomo
#10 - 2013-06-16 08:45:29 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Because "unloading" light missiles wouldn't be broken at all. Nope. Not even a little. No broken stuff here.

I think the problem is that people dont understand just how much damage small weapons do.

An unbonused light missile launcher with perfect skills, no damage mods, firing caldari navy ammo does 16 DPS
An unbonused heavy missile launcher with perfect skills, no damage mods, firing caldari navy ammo does 26 DPS

This means that if you were to make the rapid light missile launcher have 2x the ROF as the regular light missile launcher, it would be doing MORE damage than the heavy missile launcher . . . 23% more which means that even the a damage bonused ship would only do 2% more DPS with a heavy missile launcher at level 5

And the light missile launcher takes less CPU/PG, hits small things better, and isnt locked into one damage type.

People just need a bit of perspective because frigate weapons actually do a surprising amount of DPS.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-06-16 08:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
The general DPS trend, putting frigate weapons at 100%, is cruiser weapons at 133% and battleship weapons at 177%. Missiles are different, not sure the actual amounts there.

But yeah, medium weapons don't hit a whole lot harder than small weapons. The bigger thing setting them apart is range vs tracking. Medium weapons have twice the range of small, and large have twice the range as medium. This is also different for missiles.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-06-16 09:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Light missiles (even with cara bonus) and drones hit sh... vs loki boosted frigs. It is too easy to make these 2 weapon systems completely useless.
Vs non boosted frigs I have made the experience that a cruiser/dessie with drone speed+damage bonus and warriors will eat frigs maybe even faster than a rapid light cara.
But again: If frig is boosted your missiles and drones are in 95% of all cases completely useless.
So don´t waste toooo much hope on eating frigs with light missiles. In 60% of my fights I have a booster c...t as opponent.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#13 - 2013-06-16 14:23:02 UTC
The issue is that for missiles, everything but rate of fire is set by the ammunition. Giving cruisers a bonus to RLML would be the same as giving bonuses to small turrets on a hull larger than destroyers. I'm actually kind of shocked they let the Caracal and Nighthawk have it.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#14 - 2013-06-16 17:20:16 UTC
the ROF is set by the launcher. how fast it can cool off in between shots without melting.


its a cruiser, it should do cruiser damage with a smaller weapon systems. it should shred smaller targets up too 8k m/s or so.
range it limited by the missile. but damage...its a cruiser weapon.

thats what bothers me about the "dual xxx" turrets. they are taking 2 small weapons or 2 medium weapons and mounting them on the same turret, moving it with cruiser or bs motors (faster tracking) and mounting them on a ship.
on a cruiser, the dual weapons should have the same or better tracking than the small weapon does on a frig. it also should have double ROF since its a "dual weapon system" (2 guns mounted on a platform).

give it 2x the rof which symbolizes one weapon firing, then the other, then back and forth and back...
same range, same damage as small, just better tracking and 2x ROF. as it stand, they have cruiser tracking and a lil bit of rof bonus. it doesnt compare.

example. look at the ma duce (50 cal machine gun). ive seen double mounted (same weapon, just 2 mounted on a platform).
double ROF. ive also seen quad mounted and they spit the rounds out. same range, same damage (only 4 of them).

thats what these systems are and their stats should represent that.
i may not have the range or a 5" cannon, but anything that comes within a mile is shredded.
and we should have gun ships with bonuses to light guns or dual mounted (as they should be, firing small ammo like light missiles). like the vaggy gets the range bonus, what if we put the double small weapons on it. it would have the range of frig (plus fall off bonus), 2x rof and shred small stuff better.

there is such an imbalance now.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-06-16 18:54:12 UTC
Bellicose, Huginn, Cerberus and Caracal Navy Issue also have bonuses that apply to rapid light launchers.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-06-16 18:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Light missiles (even with cara bonus) and drones hit sh... vs loki boosted frigs. It is too easy to make these 2 weapon systems completely useless.
Vs non boosted frigs I have made the experience that a cruiser/dessie with drone speed+damage bonus and warriors will eat frigs maybe even faster than a rapid light cara.
But again: If frig is boosted your missiles and drones are in 95% of all cases completely useless.
So don´t waste toooo much hope on eating frigs with light missiles. In 60% of my fights I have a booster c...t as opponent.

thats cause loki(skirmish) speed bonus is too good,it gives both better speed and speed tank at the same time, and tank bonuses should be only from siege and armor gang bonuses

it should increase signature radius too ,so ships doesnt get better "resists" just more speed
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-06-16 21:07:02 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The issue is that for missiles, everything but rate of fire is set by the ammunition. Giving cruisers a bonus to RLML would be the same as giving bonuses to small turrets on a hull larger than destroyers. I'm actually kind of shocked they let the Caracal and Nighthawk have it.
I don't see that as a problem. In fact I think ships should generally have bonuses to any size weapon. It is not overpowered for a cruiser to use bonused frigate weapons, because they still lack the range, and lack the mobility to make up for it. If larger ships got bonuses to smaller weapons, we might see some interesting fits.

But if that were the case, I think the RLML should be removed from the game, as it would become a bit overpowered.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Sigras
Conglomo
#18 - 2013-06-16 22:33:54 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
the ROF is set by the launcher. how fast it can cool off in between shots without melting.


its a cruiser, it should do cruiser damage with a smaller weapon systems. it should shred smaller targets up too 8k m/s or so.
range it limited by the missile. but damage...its a cruiser weapon.



You realize how useless this would make frigates? especially since light missiles can go out to 40km every missile cruiser and drake in the game would be running these things bonus or no bonus because it would hit everything more effectively with the same amount of damage costing less PG and CPU. you dont think that sounds just a tad imbalanced?

Mole Guy wrote:
thats what bothers me about the "dual xxx" turrets. they are taking 2 small weapons or 2 medium weapons and mounting them on the same turret, moving it with cruiser or bs motors (faster tracking) and mounting them on a ship.
on a cruiser, the dual weapons should have the same or better tracking than the small weapon does on a frig. it also should have double ROF since its a "dual weapon system" (2 guns mounted on a platform).

give it 2x the rof which symbolizes one weapon firing, then the other, then back and forth and back...
same range, same damage as small, just better tracking and 2x ROF. as it stand, they have cruiser tracking and a lil bit of rof bonus. it doesnt compare.

example. look at the ma duce (50 cal machine gun). ive seen double mounted (same weapon, just 2 mounted on a platform).
double ROF. ive also seen quad mounted and they spit the rounds out. same range, same damage (only 4 of them).

thats what these systems are and their stats should represent that.
i may not have the range or a 5" cannon, but anything that comes within a mile is shredded.
and we should have gun ships with bonuses to light guns or dual mounted (as they should be, firing small ammo like light missiles). like the vaggy gets the range bonus, what if we put the double small weapons on it. it would have the range of frig (plus fall off bonus), 2x rof and shred small stuff better.

there is such an imbalance now.

Wow . . . you really have no concept of how much damage different weapons in game actually do . . .

an unbonused 425mm autocannon 2 with perfect skills, no damage mods firing faction ammo does 37 DPS
an unbonused 800mm autocannon 2 with perfect skills, no damage mods firing faction ammo does 50 DPS

If the dual 425mm autocannon 2 did 2x the DPS of a 425 autocannon 2, it would do 74 DPS or 48% more than the current 800mm autocannon 2 (the largest available battleship autocannon)

All the while, it would take less fitting, and better tracking.

The amarr are even worse, the heavy pulse laser 2 does 46 DPS with conflag, the mega pulse does 62, thats a 54% increase!

TL;DR
medium weapons do more damage than you think, so you should not suggest things that would make the game totally broken
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-06-16 22:48:57 UTC
It makes me very sad that the navy caracal's bonus doesn't work for RLML's =<

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