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Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-06-14 13:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Solaris
Robert Caldera wrote:
Raven Solaris wrote:

I didn't say more cherrypickers, I said more competition, ie. more explorers. Particularly ones that aren't idiots and leave sites that have been run still there.


you didnt say but you implied by referring to "more explorers" because cherrypicking is what explorers actually do, everything else is waste of time and supporting local competition.


On the contrary, the post I was responding to implied that cherry picking is a good idea because it drives away local competition.

I'm saying it's a bad idea because local competition is actually good for your wallet provided everyone (or most) finish the sites.

Which it is, my wallet and the massive increase in profession sites to run since Odyssey hit and more people started running them can attest to that.

Edit - As for cherry picking being "what explorers do", anyone who gets caught doing that around Provi gets slapped around the back of the head by everyone else.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#62 - 2013-06-14 14:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Raven Solaris wrote:

I'm saying it's a bad idea because local competition is actually good for your wallet provided everyone (or most) finish the sites.

so what you're basically saying is that cherrypicking is a bad idea because otherwise is better for your wallet. Doesnt actually answer the why, what was the original question of this conversation.

Whats good about other dudes zipping around and stealing "your" loot? Spawning more sites means higher loot supply on market which in turns means proportional inflation of loot prices, which in turn boils down to same profits in the end but costs you more time and effort finishing sites than just looking for new ones.
Moth Eisig
#63 - 2013-06-14 15:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Moth Eisig
The problem is that someone who cherry picks will benefit even more from being in an area with local competition that finishes all sites than the people who completely finish the sites will since the cherry picker will get all the good stuff and then the other explorers will respawn the sites for him/her.

On a larger scale, too many people are exploring in general which has caused the markets to crash. Cherry picking and leaving half run sites for everyone to sift through will get less dedicated explorers to go back to doing something else, hopefully bringing the markets back up. Sure, you can do 10 sites now in the time it took you to do 7 before, but the items are worth 1/3 - 1/2 of their previous prices.

So the only situation I really see not cherry picking as a good idea is when there's a concerted effort by a corp to cover an area and keep other explorers out. Otherwise, you're just respawning sites for the people who do cherry pick and will make much better isk/hour than you because this is Eve and greed is king.

edit: I think this is a great example of the Prisoner's Dilemma playing out in a game. Everyone finishing all the sites and making sure they respawn is like the prisoners refusing to testifiy. You give up on the best result for yourself (cherry picking/testifying and going free) for a fairly acceptable result for everyone. But you can't trust the other people to not be greedy so you decide to beat them to it instead of being the sacrificial lamb, but then everyone ends up in a bad spot (worthless sites littering space/both prisoners in jail for the longer sentence term). But in EVE it's a decision that is made with every site you run, so most people probably try to average out their decisions depending on what's in the site and how many fresh sites they've been finding.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#64 - 2013-06-14 15:23:35 UTC
nice find about the Prisoner's dilemma :)
Lucas Irvam
The Anodyne Consortium
#65 - 2013-06-14 16:26:34 UTC
Raven Solaris wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
but if one site is done, another one spawns. this doesnt increase the overall number of sites, they just move from one system to a different one, right? IF people properly finish them at all, most probably just cherrypick. Dont think your theory works.


Let's say I'm running sites around Harbleblarg and someone else is running sites near Hurfledurf. If we both just cherry pick, both of us only end up with cherry picked sites. If we both finish our sites, new sites will be spawning for both of us, thus increasing our income.

It works just fine.


And if you're one of 10 people exploring in Harbleblarg and no one is running sites in Hurfledurf, it could be to your benefit to cherrypick the sites so that 1) you waste the time of the other 9 explorers in your area and 2) possibly frustrate them to the point of ragequitting exploration entirely, reducing your competition and making your loot more valuable. There's a chance any fully completed sites would respawn in Harbleblarg, but you could also possibly count on one or two of the other 9 to be clearing the stripped sites you left behind anyway.

Moth Eisig wrote:
edit: I think this is a great example of the Prisoner's Dilemma playing out in a game. Everyone finishing all the sites and making sure they respawn is like the prisoners refusing to testifiy. You give up on the best result for yourself (cherry picking/testifying and going free) for a fairly acceptable result for everyone. But you can't trust the other people to not be greedy so you decide to beat them to it instead of being the sacrificial lamb, but then everyone ends up in a bad spot (worthless sites littering space/both prisoners in jail for the longer sentence term). But in EVE it's a decision that is made with every site you run, so most people probably try to average out their decisions depending on what's in the site and how many fresh sites they've been finding.


Exactly this. Now combine the Prisoner's Dilemma with the notion of Eve players being ruthless, cut-throat efficiency machines, and you get to where we're at now. The fact that this change was made without removing the ability to scan the containers shows a remarkable lack of foresight, given how much cargo scanners have been talked about w/r/t exploration since the patch.
CCP Bayesian
#66 - 2013-06-14 18:31:15 UTC
CCP Prime just submitted a fix for this problem. Sites will despawn a reasonable amount of time after the first can is hacked.

The unintentional "prisoners dilemma" in this case is interesting but the despawning mechanic is not easy to understand from within the game so it doesn't really work.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Moth Eisig
#67 - 2013-06-14 19:19:35 UTC
And there was much rejoicing. :)

Now if only we could get the data/relic site saturation in npc nullsec higher than 1 every 30 systems or so. Big smile
Ms Valkyrie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-06-14 22:32:20 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
CCP Prime just submitted a fix for this problem. Sites will despawn a reasonable amount of time after the first can is hacked.

The unintentional "prisoners dilemma" in this case is interesting but the despawning mechanic is not easy to understand from within the game so it doesn't really work.


Could we please get a clarification for how long a resonable amount of time is in this case? I don't mind stop watching it after the fix is pushed but I would prefer not =)

Thanks
Ciriaco Waldvogel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-06-15 00:13:43 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
CCP Prime just submitted a fix for this problem. Sites will despawn a reasonable amount of time after the first can is hacked.

The unintentional "prisoners dilemma" in this case is interesting but the despawning mechanic is not easy to understand from within the game so it doesn't really work.



Well, that fixes the cherry picking problem at one level. Expect "high" end drops to reach an equilibrium with "low" end drops, further depressing the value of exploration. I guess it is a self-regulating market.
Vile Belief
Scarlet Trading
#70 - 2013-06-15 03:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vile Belief
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Hi all,

We are looking into this issue where players are encountering half finished/cherry picked sites.

This has occurred due to the original despawning mechanics of the sites pre-Odyssey and the vast increase in general exploration, so we have made a temporary fix to this which results in the sites remaining until all containers are opened or destroyed.

Obviously we feel that this is detrimental to the overall Exploration feature and are currently in talks about how to best alleviate this issue.

But for now, rest assured that we will be looking into resolving this to give you the best exploration experience we can before larger iterations occur further down the line.

CCP RedDawn


I got to say, spending hours finding a site and then realizing it's mostly empty is very disheartening. I'm not asking for rewards to be handed to me for free or with little effort, but traveling system-to-system with zero results to only be teased with a half-empty site is pretty bad. I know that's not your intention as the developer, but I just wanted to express my feelings on the whole ordeal.

What really kicked me off the other day was not the empty sites per se, but the fact a corp mate of mine landed a load of faction tower BPC's in high security while I was shooting blanks in the most dangerous space. According to your marketing team and your trailers, we are supposed to be discovering the deep treasures of the darkest and secluded spots in the EVE Galaxy. Yet, it seems at least from a reward standpoint, my corp mate was AFK hacking while I was sweating bullets and dodging Goonswarm gate camps.

Reference --> TwitchTv.com/TehFamine

P.S

Thanks for the fix to kill sites after first can has been hacked.
Cthulhu Fthagn
Yaxchilan
#71 - 2013-06-16 16:47:29 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
CCP Prime just submitted a fix for this problem. Sites will despawn a reasonable amount of time after the first can is hacked.

The unintentional "prisoners dilemma" in this case is interesting but the despawning mechanic is not easy to understand from within the game so it doesn't really work.



Any update on when we can expect the fix?
The whole experience is utterly broken as it is now.
Vile Belief
Scarlet Trading
#72 - 2013-06-17 14:45:27 UTC
Cthulhu Fthagn wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
CCP Prime just submitted a fix for this problem. Sites will despawn a reasonable amount of time after the first can is hacked.

The unintentional "prisoners dilemma" in this case is interesting but the despawning mechanic is not easy to understand from within the game so it doesn't really work.



Any update on when we can expect the fix?
The whole experience is utterly broken as it is now.


Updates would be great. I currently run a hacking corp who would love more info on this change. It's becoming a pain finding a lot of empty sites after so much work involved in finding them as the competition is high atm.
Cthulhu Fthagn
Yaxchilan
#73 - 2013-06-18 11:21:04 UTC
Still no fix even after today's patch.
I don't understand you CCP.

Unless you're trying to deter people from exploring....
Ms Valkyrie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-06-18 17:05:29 UTC
Cthulhu Fthagn wrote:
Still no fix even after today's patch.
I don't understand you CCP.

Unless you're trying to deter people from exploring....


Yes I do find it odd as well that it has taken more than 4 days for the fix to be implemented. However, I can say I am enjoying my break away from expo.
Cthulhu Fthagn
Yaxchilan
#75 - 2013-06-19 11:09:00 UTC
Ms Valkyrie wrote:

Yes I do find it odd as well that it has taken more than 4 days for the fix to be implemented. However, I can say I am enjoying my break away from expo.


I think that has to be their intention.. to force players away from exploration.
Can't explain another reason for a fast response to breaking the respawn of sites.. but a slooooooow response to fixing them.
Another patch, still no fix today :)

-1 explorer.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-06-19 11:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Johan Toralen wrote:
I hope this is not so that sites get cleaned up and fresh sites spawn after downtime. That would be a massive advantage for some players, disadvantage to the rest. Wasn't it like that in the past and it sucked?
I'm not against the change per se. Unfinished sites will help ease the market situation a bit. Smart explorers who know where to look will still find fresh sites. But the eventual despawn has to be consistent with when the first container was hacked. Perhaps after 4, 6, 12 hours or whatever would be adequate.

Ciriaco Waldvogel wrote:
What a bad solution to the cherry picking problem. Just blocking scanning of the cargo and it goes back to random, the way it should be.


I've seen a couple voices against the cargo scan. But tell me how a solo explorer would ever get a bpc from a relic site with no cargo scanner? Who would collect data cans and miss out on the t2 loot for this slim chance?
Cargo scan isn't the issue. The issue is a spew mechanic designed for group activity that is impossible to balance for serving its purpose while not being unfair to solo explorers. The cherry picking wasn't an issue with the old system.

I also find the cargo scan gives at least a bit of depth to running the sites. Otherwise the loot spew would be completely dull. I get excited when i see i valuable bpc on the scan and then pray that nobody disturbs me and the minigame fairy is good to me.

Another thing during Sisi test the cans were completely random and as a result the loot was abysmal for solo, whereas a group would always get all the goodies. Not fair, not balanced.

I stay by my opinion that the main issue with the new sites is the low entry barrier.



Yep cargo spewing is plain crap. The initial idea of the minigame is good then turns out to be another click fest, definitively CCP devs love click fests, however instead of cans spew why not just make it opening the site can instead?
Wouldn't change much about the fact people will continue to do it solo so the intended purpose of making it's a team job is completely nullified anyway.

Edit: by forcing people to click fest and not fixing or changing some of the mechanics CCP is only promoting cherry picking gameplay and this will end with another crap ton of fake fixes that will not fix the bad implementation of can spewing and gambling hack game that shouldn't be ones in the first place.

Why would you spend time hacking cans with stupid loot? -just pick the ones that have interesting stuff, hack, success? move to another site and if no success it's also that good, just move to the next site and don't waste time with gambling crap game and can spewing for 200isk carbon metal scraps and batteries.
None of the current fixes solved the initial problems and the next ones will not do it neither.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-06-19 11:50:51 UTC
Vile Belief wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Hi all,

We are looking into this issue where players are encountering half finished/cherry picked sites.

This has occurred due to the original despawning mechanics of the sites pre-Odyssey and the vast increase in general exploration, so we have made a temporary fix to this which results in the sites remaining until all containers are opened or destroyed.

Obviously we feel that this is detrimental to the overall Exploration feature and are currently in talks about how to best alleviate this issue.

But for now, rest assured that we will be looking into resolving this to give you the best exploration experience we can before larger iterations occur further down the line.

CCP RedDawn


I got to say, spending hours finding a site and then realizing it's mostly empty is very disheartening. I'm not asking for rewards to be handed to me for free or with little effort, but traveling system-to-system with zero results to only be teased with a half-empty site is pretty bad. I know that's not your intention as the developer, but I just wanted to express my feelings on the whole ordeal.

What really kicked me off the other day was not the empty sites per se, but the fact a corp mate of mine landed a load of faction tower BPC's in high security while I was shooting blanks in the most dangerous space. According to your marketing team and your trailers, we are supposed to be discovering the deep treasures of the darkest and secluded spots in the EVE Galaxy. Yet, it seems at least from a reward standpoint, my corp mate was AFK hacking while I was sweating bullets and dodging Goonswarm gate camps.

Reference --> TwitchTv.com/TehFamine

P.S

Thanks for the fix to kill sites after first can has been hacked.



Also this.

Make it so high sec sites get more T2 salvage which is the one required to make T2 rigs cheaper and not decriptors, few chances of new modules BPC spawn, none T2 or faction towers (WTH??)

Give decriptors to low only and large modules BPC +increase amount ot T2 salvage

Leave faction/T2 bpc's to null sec sites

Remove the can spew thing it's silly, players tell you CCP this is silly and the initial purpose of making it a team play just fails completely, making it harder cans spew will not force team play but makes sites totally uninteresting.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Fr00b Snap
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-06-19 12:31:02 UTC
It`s cherry picking expansion. First you cherry pick a system with cosmic signatures, then you cherry pick data and relic sites from cosmic signatures, then you cherry pick cans with worthy loot inside, then you cherry pick your way through mini-game grid to the core, then you cherry pick mini-containers with good stuff inside. When eventually you cherry pick yourself back to trade hub, your cherries are worth 10% what they were worth before you started cherry picking in first place.
Vile Belief
Scarlet Trading
#79 - 2013-06-20 14:07:09 UTC
I spent most of my play time tonight finding half-empty sites and with no real value. It was a bit upsetting for me and my viewers (TwitchTv Stream). I think even if they did implement this change, there is still only 2 cosmic signatures popping in null-sec for most regions. That leaves maybe a small percentage chance of them being a relic/data site to be hacked (i.e.: not enough sites to go around).
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#80 - 2013-06-20 14:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Vile Belief wrote:
I spent most of my play time tonight finding half-empty sites and with no real value. It was a bit upsetting for me and my viewers (TwitchTv Stream). I think even if they did implement this change, there is still only 2 cosmic signatures popping in null-sec for most regions. That leaves maybe a small percentage chance of them being a relic/data site to be hacked (i.e.: not enough sites to go around).


There are enough sigs in nullsec. An occasional dry spell is normal because other people might explore on your route just before you and the distribution of sigs is not perfectly even across all systems. Look for systems/constallation off the beaten path. Chances are you find systems with half a dozen relic/data sites.