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Seriously? That's some incredibly bad game design EVE.

First post First post
Author
Nox Solitudo
That Random Worker Ant Colony
#61 - 2013-06-14 16:46:39 UTC
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
Yikes, I feel for the OP, but I'm glad I found out about this piece of 'interesting' game design.

I've been playing for 8 days, along with a friend who started at the same time. We've both finished the tutorials, and the career paths, and were looking forward to teaming up for the SoE questline. We like to interact with each other a bit more than just chatting on skype while we mine lol.

However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.

Incidentally, she's one of my best friends in RL, so Eve's 'Trust nobody!' chestnut isn't 100% accurate advice, at least in my case. But the well-documented tendency of Eve to encourage backstabbery and crappy behaviour towards other people has however already made me decline 4 offers to join corps so far. Nobody's yet explained why doing so would make my game any better.

Incidentally, I too think the OP has identified a less-thsn-stellar piece of game design, but I'm not 'whining' about it. It is what it is. More advance warning would have been nice, though.


Is there any reason why you want to do specifically missions?

I mean, you have full universe of interesting stuff to do, and you choose to end up in Space McDonalds...?
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#62 - 2013-06-14 17:01:50 UTC
I just got blown up doing my COSMOS arc and can't complete my mission now. GMs!!!!! SAVE MEH I REALLAH WANTED THAT 'SPENIVE THANG!!!! Cry


Get very used to this response after 2 weeks in the annoying people queue:

{Our Logs Show Nothing}


Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-06-14 17:28:40 UTC
The proper response to getting trolled on a mission is to ask someone how to keep it from happening again. Vet trolls player to generate tears to harvest. Tears usually come in local. Good tears come in incoherent profanity filled email. Best tears result in ranting forum posts. So all you've done here is give the guy what he wants.

Eve PvE is astoundingly bad compared to every other MMO (sorry CCP devs). The only thing that makes it remotely interesting is the other players who can either be fun to mission with, or can warp into your deadspace pocket to mess with you.

You can defeat the Dagan without help, but you might have to take a few more days/couple of weeks to skill up to do it. There are usually people in that system that will also help you. There actually are people in Eve that enjoy helping others; like RL, more good guys than bad. But its really hard to tell who the good guys and bad guys are without trying them out.

If the OP can make one post in this thread that doesn't drip with tears and whining I'll fly out and help with the mission. I promise to not steal the loot. My promise is worth jack, so you'd just have to hope for the best. Maybe something like:

Whoa, sorry for the freakout, I was just really upset and now realize I'm playing in a game where even the PvE content is PvP and that things sometimes don't go my way. Could you come help me finish this mission and please not steal my loot so I can turn it in?

Otherwise, keep up with the freakouts and I'll look forward to your incoherent profanity filled emails making the rounds.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-06-14 17:38:13 UTC
Lol this guy's an idiot.
Marmaduke Hatplate
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-06-14 17:41:56 UTC
Nox Solitudo wrote:
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
Yikes, I feel for the OP, but I'm glad I found out about this piece of 'interesting' game design.

I've been playing for 8 days, along with a friend who started at the same time. We've both finished the tutorials, and the career paths, and were looking forward to teaming up for the SoE questline. We like to interact with each other a bit more than just chatting on skype while we mine lol.

However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.

Incidentally, she's one of my best friends in RL, so Eve's 'Trust nobody!' chestnut isn't 100% accurate advice, at least in my case. But the well-documented tendency of Eve to encourage backstabbery and crappy behaviour towards other people has however already made me decline 4 offers to join corps so far. Nobody's yet explained why doing so would make my game any better.

Incidentally, I too think the OP has identified a less-thsn-stellar piece of game design, but I'm not 'whining' about it. It is what it is. More advance warning would have been nice, though.


Is there any reason why you want to do specifically missions?

I mean, you have full universe of interesting stuff to do, and you choose to end up in Space McDonalds...?

"Friends and fun...The only 2 really important things in EVE Online." - Crazy Dutch Guy

Marmaduke Hatplate
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-06-14 17:43:14 UTC
Nox Solitudo wrote:
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
Yikes, I feel for the OP, but I'm glad I found out about this piece of 'interesting' game design.

I've been playing for 8 days, along with a friend who started at the same time. We've both finished the tutorials, and the career paths, and were looking forward to teaming up for the SoE questline. We like to interact with each other a bit more than just chatting on skype while we mine lol.

However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.

Incidentally, she's one of my best friends in RL, so Eve's 'Trust nobody!' chestnut isn't 100% accurate advice, at least in my case. But the well-documented tendency of Eve to encourage backstabbery and crappy behaviour towards other people has however already made me decline 4 offers to join corps so far. Nobody's yet explained why doing so would make my game any better.

Incidentally, I too think the OP has identified a less-thsn-stellar piece of game design, but I'm not 'whining' about it. It is what it is. More advance warning would have been nice, though.


Is there any reason why you want to do specifically missions?

I mean, you have full universe of interesting stuff to do, and you choose to end up in Space McDonalds...?


Without wanting to risk sounding antagonistic, I'm not sure what all that 'interesting stuff' you're talking about is. So far, I gather that I can:
Mine asteroids and sell the ore etc on the market.
Get probes and explore and find anomalies etc, which is essentiallly 'mining' different space things for different space loot. Then go sell them on the market.
PvP (presumably winning is what's wanted, then looting the defeated and selling their stuff on the market.
Buy and sell stuff on the market. Profit.

I have heard about inventions and manufacturing with blueprints too, but that seems to involve more mining, marketeering and selling stuff on the market.

Which leaves missions, which is a long sequence of all of the above (bar PvP, which I'm not interested in much), with a bit of added narrative and importantly a sort of guided structure to it all.

Eve is very pretty, but we're basically doing the same things as all MMORPG players do: fight and loot mobs and other players, gather, craft and marketeer.

I'm quite happy to do missions, I like ticking boxes :D

"Friends and fun...The only 2 really important things in EVE Online." - Crazy Dutch Guy

Oraac Ensor
#67 - 2013-06-14 18:18:57 UTC
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.

I think you're misunderstanding. EVE isn't designed to prevent fleeting for missions - just the opposite in fact.

What has been said here is that in some missions there is a specific mission loot item that must be retrieved in order to complete the mission. As there is only one such item in the mission it quite obviously can't be "shared" because the mission owner has to turn it in to complete the mission.

The mission reward is a different matter - that can be shared equally amongst the fleet members.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-06-14 18:28:53 UTC
welcome to EVE, enjoy your stay.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-06-14 20:23:00 UTC
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.
As Oraac wrote, EVE encourages you to fleet up.

Together, you can do missions faster and attempt harder missions that you wouldn't be able to complete alone. And you can share the reward, which means the ISK, loyalty points and standing you get from the agent will be evenly split with everyone in your fleet.

What people have to get out of their head is that notion from other games that they are "on the same quest".

You never are on the same mission in EVE. You and your friend might both have a mission with the same name, given by the same agent. But they are still two distinct missions. You can help each other to complete the missions, but because they are two distinct missions, you will have to run both missions.
Ekhss Nihilo
The Night Watchmen
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2013-06-14 20:29:44 UTC
Maxx Kilbride wrote:
Oh it gets better. I was just told, and confirmed by a GM, that I can't complete the mission and will need to have the quest line reset because that was "my" Dagan. I can't just re-do it myself.


And yes yes, I get that whole spiel about how "Trust nobody", I don't care if it was an alt.

It's not his fault. It's not mine. It's EVE. It should've spawned one for each of us, as we both had the mission, both helped kill Dagan.

But no. Then people will come here and justify how that's just "EVE" and how it's "Hardcore" , and it's "my fault".

Right.

So I gotta lose standing now, money, time, effort, ect.

Cmon now,. There's no reason for it to be like this other than lazy developers. Anyone trying to excuse such a system is lying to themselves.

This can easily be resolved by joining a corp before you get too far into the SoE mission arc. Then, when you encounter the tougher opponents, you'll have a reliable - or at least, more reliable - source of help. Always look askance at the kindness of strangers.

Clear ether and fly safe.

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius (AD 121-180)

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-06-14 20:45:48 UTC
Ekhss Nihilo wrote:
Maxx Kilbride wrote:
Oh it gets better. I was just told, and confirmed by a GM, that I can't complete the mission and will need to have the quest line reset because that was "my" Dagan. I can't just re-do it myself.


And yes yes, I get that whole spiel about how "Trust nobody", I don't care if it was an alt.

It's not his fault. It's not mine. It's EVE. It should've spawned one for each of us, as we both had the mission, both helped kill Dagan.

But no. Then people will come here and justify how that's just "EVE" and how it's "Hardcore" , and it's "my fault".

Right.

So I gotta lose standing now, money, time, effort, ect.

Cmon now,. There's no reason for it to be like this other than lazy developers. Anyone trying to excuse such a system is lying to themselves.

This can easily be resolved by joining a corp before you get too far into the SoE mission arc. Then, when you encounter the tougher opponents, you'll have a reliable - or at least, more reliable - source of help. Always look askance at the kindness of strangers.

Clear ether and fly safe.


Join Goons, they'll help you

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#72 - 2013-06-14 21:06:13 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Ekhss Nihilo wrote:
Maxx Kilbride wrote:
Oh it gets better. I was just told, and confirmed by a GM, that I can't complete the mission and will need to have the quest line reset because that was "my" Dagan. I can't just re-do it myself.


And yes yes, I get that whole spiel about how "Trust nobody", I don't care if it was an alt.

It's not his fault. It's not mine. It's EVE. It should've spawned one for each of us, as we both had the mission, both helped kill Dagan.

But no. Then people will come here and justify how that's just "EVE" and how it's "Hardcore" , and it's "my fault".

Right.

So I gotta lose standing now, money, time, effort, ect.

Cmon now,. There's no reason for it to be like this other than lazy developers. Anyone trying to excuse such a system is lying to themselves.

This can easily be resolved by joining a corp before you get too far into the SoE mission arc. Then, when you encounter the tougher opponents, you'll have a reliable - or at least, more reliable - source of help. Always look askance at the kindness of strangers.

Clear ether and fly safe.


Join Goons, they'll help you


Yep that's the best place for the PvE end game here. Tell the recruiter we sent you and you'll get special deals.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#73 - 2013-06-14 21:33:59 UTC
I like how the OP stopped posting a while ago and this thread is still going :D lol

The Drake is a Lie

Trolly McForumalt
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-06-14 21:41:50 UTC
Hmm. I didn't read all the responses but what I did read was pretty much par for the course around here (and if you read more of that then maybe you wouldn't have been so trusting of that random stranger).

The one thing they didn't cover though in their Eve lessons and rules is this: Eve pve content is only a little bit better than stinking garbage. You can do it and it's sorta interesting the first time, but after that it's repetitive and boring at best. At worst it's broken and annoying. Standard missions still look like something in an alpha or early beta stage. There are some COSMOS missions that are broken and prevent you from completing further missions in the chain - and they've been broken for years. Missions in general haven't been touched in many years. PVE in Eve isn't where it's at - the smart ones only pve to get ISK to fund pvp. If you're looking to get into Eve only for the pve then stop now. Unsub and don't look back.

The community? It's not good. In fact it's somewhere between not good and bad. If you wanted an MMO with good community then you'd play LotRO or something.

And yeah, the community is pretty defensive about the game - reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy XI players (and that was a bad game). IMO a game should stand on its own merits - play it or don't. Doesn't matter.

The best pve MMO is still probably wow (incoming hate?). And there still are probably better pvp MMOs out there too - Darkfall? GW2? Haven't tried them but I'm sure they're at least decent in a few ways. Whatever. What Eve does have is a different style of gameplay and setting. All or most other MMOs are your standard fantasy setting. Eve is one of the few scifi MMOs ever and maybe the only active one with any sort of subscriber base.

If you're not willing to eat a **** sandwich every now and then in order to be able to play a scifi MMO then look elsewhere. Good luck.
Praqzis Synkara
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2013-06-15 00:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Praqzis Synkara
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
welcome to EVE, enjoy your stay.


+1, big time :).

What would TRULY make me laugh is if the 30mil on the market was posted by the guy that got the mission reward! HAHA. In EVE Online, I would totally expect that to happen as well.

I also just want to add that not all noobies feel like OP. I'm brand new to the game (just 5 days old) and agree what everybody else has said so far. Sounds very much like OP messed up, QQ'd about it, and wants it fixed.

But I don't think about EVE Online as a game. I've come to realize it's NOT a game really. It's a futuristic, sci-fi, MMO _simulator_. New Eden is a place filled with hardened capsuleers and you truly have to Trust Noone. Frankly, it's this simulator aspect (and HTFU) that has gotten me quite hooked to EVE right away.

And let me state this... Before EVE, I was a CareBear, Big Time! The idea of PvP turned me off of many games. For some reason, here I am in EVE Online, and loving every minute of it. I actually feel a strong desire to join up with a corp and start doing some Tackling. I suppose it is because I have always loved simulation games. This is not a standard RPG. This is a simulator. Treat it as such, HTFU, and enjoy your time in New Eden :).

BTW, on the whole "broken game design" thing, OP is wrong. If you think about EVE as a simulator, how does it make ANY sense for two guys/quest awards to pop out? It's a single guy you killed, how are there possibly two corpses?
Cilgil Arbosa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-06-15 01:07:28 UTC
Haha wow eve is so cool and has a bad attitude I like that not like that Meow Kitty Online game or what. HTFU can I have your stuff yada yada yada


Fact is: A Newbie Epic Arc tailored for newbies, with a mission chain that can keep you occupied for the good half of a week if you play casually and a very tough end boss designed to be finished by two players (preferably also noobs, since the whole freaking arc is designed for them), can not be finished by two players. And if you try to redo that last step a GM basically tells you to suck it up and do the whole mission chain again?

Thats not cold and harsh, thats simply bad mission design and faulty game mechanics. No amount of HTFU yelling will change that.
GM Bunyip
Game Master Retirement Home
#77 - 2013-06-15 01:25:05 UTC
Cilgil Arbosa wrote:
Fact is: A Newbie Epic Arc tailored for newbies, with a mission chain that can keep you occupied for the good half of a week if you play casually and a very tough end boss designed to be finished by two players (preferably also noobs, since the whole freaking arc is designed for them), can not be finished by two players.


Not easily, in general, but the difficulty of the last mission depends on a wide number of variables such as the person's mentality, skill progression, and how quickly they've progressed through the arc. Some people discover the arc late and have an easier time since they've trained longer and become more effective, while others get schooled, bide their time, and come back in a bigger, better ship to finish the job they couldn't before. Others pull in a friend or stranger. I like to think the difficulty of the last mission offers a unique "graduation" challenge with multiple paths to success that cater to different playstyles, and in that regard the design seems to works well. I may be biased, however! Big smile

Cilgil Arbosa wrote:
And if you try to redo that last step a GM basically tells you to suck it up and do the whole mission chain again?


Not quite. We'll explain exactly what happened (i.e. "Hey, looks like someone stole your stuff! Here's an EVElopedia link about ninja looting.") Then we'll reset just that mission, not the whole 60-part arc. Ultimately all that will be lost is some time, and what will be gained is a very valuable lesson about trust that came fairly cheaply.
Cilgil Arbosa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-06-15 01:36:21 UTC
Well that sounds a lot less infuriating now.

Especially since only the last mission will be resetted. Thats not that much of a hassle and a rational approach. Only thing that still bugs me is that it's really not that easy to find the story arc in the first place. Without very, very careful reading of the career agent debriefing text and/or diving into evelopedia it's practically not possible to stumble over that chain yourself.
I get that approach for advanced PVE content like COSMOS missions, but for an entry level Story arc there should be some more obvious pointers.


But anyway, It IS a viable game mechanic to steal mission items from mission runners, after all. I made my first serious (like more than 50M) with ninja looting L4 security mission runners. Of course I snatched that damsel when I had the opportunity, no question. Damn I love this game <3
Lina Evergreen
Narcotics Operations Corporation
#79 - 2013-06-15 03:15:50 UTC
I cant see how you think this community is that bad?

You come here, with an impression of how you think the game should work, and people kindly explains to you that THIS game doesnt work like that and you keep raging.. Still people answer the OP with kindness and with good explanations.

In most communities they wouldve answered wih "lol noob". I really think Eve is one of the best and most mature communities out there.

Haulie Berry
#80 - 2013-06-15 03:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
lol, group PvE.

With a few exceptions (high end wormholes and incursions), new guy, PvE is basically a solo endeavor in EvE.