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Blaster boats still suck - Armor tanking + Blasters fundamentally incompatible

Author
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#21 - 2011-11-06 10:49:26 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
remember mimatar ships do half the dps when in falloff range.

And remember that when Minmatar ships are in falloff the enemy does no damage.
Also remember that Minmatar ships are faster.
Sad
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#22 - 2011-11-06 16:22:46 UTC
I dont know what the op is talking about. But my talos is cap stable with 8 neutrons, and accelerates fast with a 10mn ab II on there and with my skills its over 550 m/s. If i plugged in snakes its just super lulz then.


But people need to stop with the cookie cutter blaster fits and think outside of the box for fitting on these new ships.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-06 17:39:45 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
I dont know what the op is talking about. But my talos is cap stable with 8 neutrons, and accelerates fast with a 10mn ab II on there and with my skills its over 550 m/s. If i plugged in snakes its just super lulz then.


But people need to stop with the cookie cutter blaster fits and think outside of the box for fitting on these new ships.

The guy so stuck inside his own box he's talking about plugging in snakes to a paper thin close range ship with absolutely no defenses against battlecruisers and smaller is telling everyone else to get out of theirs? Tell me, Mr. "you guyz are so cookie cutter lolz" Guy, how exactly do you envision a battle playing out? We'll even make it a good one for the blasters, let's say you're 15km away off a gate with gatecloak about to engage an enemy who's sitting on the gate and definitely is going to aggro you back. In a winning scenario, how does this play out in your AB fit?

Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-11-06 17:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
DarkAegix wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
remember mimatar ships do half the dps when in falloff range.

And remember that when Minmatar ships are in falloff the enemy does no damage.
Also remember that Minmatar ships are faster.
Sad



no, they do half damage if fully at falloff, if they pull in close they do far more than that, and tracking really isn't an issue for them in a modern pvp context. this means that while their balance (taking into account fittings, cap use, reloads, damage types, etc) vis-a-vis either missiles or lasers is valid balance imho, they utterly **** blasters and leave them with no place in the game. This is both because of how they are bonused and because of base stats. my massive wall of text i think articulates the reasons for this in enough detail that I shouldn't start spelling it out again :p

I'm sure you understand, i am just making sure than anyone looking through this thread understands that we aren't saying autos are OP in a more universal context cause imho they aren't, in comparison to other weapons that people actually use. I don't think they are any more terrifying than lasers... it's just that autos recently got a real, awesome buff when they weren't so hugely underpowered and the game devs just kinda did it, and now that they make a huge announcements about "hybrid rebalance" yet they are pussying around with bullshit little trinket changes and not addressing either ammo or blaster dps...
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2011-11-06 17:58:09 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
remember mimatar ships do half the dps when in falloff range.

I'm not saying blasters don't need more damage, but it needs t be balanced with range and speed mechanics.


So do blasters, but ACs have 3x the falloff. Blasters definitely *don't* do 3x the DPS of ACs to compensate... (They do about 10-15% more dps at best)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#26 - 2011-11-06 17:59:40 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
I dont know what the op is talking about. But my talos is cap stable with 8 neutrons, and accelerates fast with a 10mn ab II on there and with my skills its over 550 m/s. If i plugged in snakes its just super lulz then.


But people need to stop with the cookie cutter blaster fits and think outside of the box for fitting on these new ships.


I see.

AB Talos: speed, 520 m/s; average acceleration under AB, 41.8 m/s/s.
MWD Tornado: speed, 1662 m/s; average acceleration under MWD, 146.8 m/s/s.

So it's a third as slow and agile as the Tornado.

You're not just out of the box, you're orbiting somewhere in the vicinity of Neptune. Shocked
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-06 19:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
not going to lie, i'm a bit bitter, because when i heard that hybrid changes were incoming, i started working on T2 cruiser and BS sized gallente skills/hybrid skills, which i still had at all level IVs from when i was a noob and abandoned gallente cruisers/BSes (except the domi) for amarr.... and now it looks like they will still be a complete and total waste of time/SPs.
Anikan Fernardo
Shedload of Zeds
#28 - 2011-11-06 19:39:17 UTC
Psst. The Talos works just fine as is. It isn't a solo boat, it is an upgraded gank Thorax. Put shield extender rigs and a large shield extender on it. 1300 dps non o/h that can effectively be applied to all targets larger than a frigate. Just don't get focused and you're fine. It's a small gang beast.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#29 - 2011-11-06 19:56:31 UTC
Anikan Fernardo wrote:
Psst. The Talos works just fine as is. It isn't a solo boat, it is an upgraded gank Thorax. Put shield extender rigs and a large shield extender on it. 1300 dps non o/h that can effectively be applied to all targets larger than a frigate. Just don't get focused and you're fine. It's a small gang beast.


I think that is the point of the whole thread. Armor tanking should work on gallente ships, and right now, it doesnt. If you properly armor tank it for getting into a knife fight so you have any chance of survival makes it turtle slow. That makes it so you cant get into the knife fight, which makes your blasters useless...
TC wabbajack
SnM pain distribution network
#30 - 2011-11-06 20:10:40 UTC
Anikan Fernardo wrote:
Psst. The Talos works just fine as is. It isn't a solo boat, it is an upgraded gank Thorax. Put shield extender rigs and a large shield extender on it. 1300 dps non o/h that can effectively be applied to all targets larger than a frigate. Just don't get focused and you're fine. It's a small gang beast.



fine though that is the gallente are allegedlly an armour tanking race,if the ship is only any use if you go against that principle it is bad design and/or planning.


blaster barges either need to move quicker or take more damage,actually they need to do both
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-07 00:01:40 UTC
TC wabbajack wrote:
Anikan Fernardo wrote:
Psst. The Talos works just fine as is. It isn't a solo boat, it is an upgraded gank Thorax. Put shield extender rigs and a large shield extender on it. 1300 dps non o/h that can effectively be applied to all targets larger than a frigate. Just don't get focused and you're fine. It's a small gang beast.



fine though that is the gallente are allegedlly an armour tanking race,if the ship is only any use if you go against that principle it is bad design and/or planning.


blaster barges either need to move quicker or take more damage,actually they need to do both


no, they are a race that swings both ways, like minnie do, except with a few ships bonused into active armor, just like minnie are still understood to be effective armor tankers outside of their few ships bonused to active shields.
TC wabbajack
SnM pain distribution network
#32 - 2011-11-07 00:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: TC wabbajack
Quote:

no, they are a race that swings both ways, like minnie do, except with a few ships bonused into active armor, just like minnie are still understood to be effective armor tankers outside of their few ships bonused to active shields.


I cannot for the life of me think of a single gallente ship that was designed for sheild tanking,there are several that have flexible enough slot layouts to do so but not one was intended to be sheild tanked.


pls name the ships that are designed to be shield tanked,or have the abiity to be sheild tanked that do not have an armour tanking certifcate in the recommended tab?
Zagdul
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2011-11-07 02:17:42 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:

Personally I think the Gallente should be reworked into closerange combat monsters-- their ships' gimmicks should get bonuses to afterburners (let them do MWD-speeds with ABs so they're effectively scram-immune), scram range (already a thing with their recons), and web strength. Make them fall somewhere between Minmatar and the other races in terms of absolute speed, but with great agility and let them do it with ABs to they can go into fights at close range while maintaining some degree of GTFO factor.

Also, increase blaster dps so that it scales in proportion to the amount of range they give up. Currently Caldari have long range, capless weapons, but they don't do too much dps and they take time to hit a target, Amarr have long range weapons that sacrifice some DPS and cap use for great range, good tracking, instant-hit and fast reloads. Minmatar have mid-ranged weapons that have ****** reload times and pretty high dps, excellent tracking, damage selection, good effective range, and don't use cap. Gallente are stuck with cap-sucking weapons (less so now, I know) that track a lot like autocannons but do about the same dps with massively gimped range and with limited damage types and terrible reload times.

Caldari: ranged, medium dps, flexible damage / target applications (equivalent of tracking)
Amarr: long-ranged, medium dps, fixed damage types, good tracking
Minmatar: medium-ranged, high dps, flexible damage types, excellent tracking
Gallente: ultra-short ranged, marginally higher dps than ACs, similar tracking

I do mostly small gang work, so here's an example of ship selections I actually choose between on a daily basis that I think exhibits the problem pretty clearly (numbers are approximate and based on my eveguy with LG snakes and shieldtanked, nano fittings [since armor fits are more or less suicidal]):

- Cynabal: 20-30km optimal engagement range, ~350 dps in that range band, 3.1+ km/s, super agile, will track frigates and larger, fits a nice tank (all around fantastic skirmish ship), fights outside scram range
- Navy Omen: 20-30km optimal engagement range (scorch), ~450 dps, 2.4km/s, fairly agile, tracks frigates and larger, fights outside scram range
- Machariel: 20-45km optimal engagement range, ~600-800 dps in that band, 2.4km/s, cruiser-level agility, tracks cruisers and larger (will kill frigates outside ~30km as well), fights outside scram range
Pulse apoc: 30-90km optimal engagement range, ~450 dps, slow, fairly fat, tracks cruisers and larger and doesn't need speed / agility since it can snipe, fights out of tackle range period

...and then we have blaster boats:

- Vigilant: 5-10km optimal engagement range, ~300-600 dps in that band, 2.6km/s, super agile, will track frigates and larger, extremely low EHP (~18k total-- 4k ehp less than a Vaga, ~10k less than a Cynabal), fights in scram range
Vindicator: 5-15km optimal engagement range, ~550-900 dps in that band, ~2km/s BC/nano-BS like agility, tracks cruisers and larger, fights in scram range

I'm not even gonna talk about other blaster boats since the Vindicator and Vigilant are pretty much better than them in every way. As you can see, in terms of usefulness, there is literally no reason other than novelty value that one would ever choose to fly a blaster boat. With the exception of absurdly well-fit active tanked gimmick ships (the deasdspace-fit, dual-rep injected vindicator, deadspace-fit 100mn AB strat-cruiser fits, etc) slow, armor tanked setups are near-suicidal due to their lack of speed / inability to disengage from fights. Only shield / nano fittings give blasterboats the speed and agility they need to get *into* an engagement properly (though not the ability to get out if it goes south), and to achieve these levels of speed and agility they must sacrifice nearly all their tank or their ability to tackle (sometimes both-- look at the Deimos). Then there's the fact that all these blaster setups need to engage inside scram range, which means that in all but the most controlled situations (say, a small gang with ECM support engaging a lone hostile ship) you're pretty likely to get tackled and die horribly.

In contrast, look at Minmatar ships. Minmatar ships trade a little bit of dps (10-15%) in exchange for greater speed, greater agility, bigger tanks, slot layouts that favor usable setups, capless weapons, what equates to "the same or better" tracking when you consider the different optimal ranges of autocannons, and, most importantly, the ability to do full damage from outside scram and web range (or in the case of the Mach, outside tackle range of any non-recon ship). The comparison between the Mach and the Vindicator is particularly instructive-- when you look at the fits I usually fly (which involve using one highslot for a utility module), the Vindicator actually does *less* dps than the Mach (with 8 guns it only does a hair more-- ~1050 dps as opposed to the Mach's 900-something), has drastically shorter range (it can't do much dps past ~20km), has to fight in scram range, fits a smaller tank, has worse scan res, and is about half as fast / agile. The slightly increased damage output is simply not worth the massive risk increase of having to fight in scram range in a slow, fat ship.


This is an awesome idea and would be unique to the race.

Just giving Gallente an AB buff would be awesome. If they did MWD speeds + agility buff they'd be on par with other races.

IMO, they can't touch armor tanking as it'd off balance Amarr. However, if Gallente had a unique feature like afterburners, I'd be a happy camper and I don't think anyone would think of it as overly imbalanced.

+1 to you sir.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-11-07 03:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
lol i was just about to post a similar idea.

a whole bunch of gallente ships should have AB bonuses. or maybe not, it would have to be test. the daredevil/vindi/vigilante line is great with web strength bonuses.

MAYBE:

1. take the deimos and consolidate to have a 10% per level to damage rather than two seperate damage bonuses and give it a web strength bonus of 5% per level as its new 4th bonus OR, seeing as A-Hacs are proved to be effective/popular, give it a 7.5% AB speed bonus as its 4th bonus
2. replace the MWD bonus on the thorax with an AB speed bonus of 7.5% per level and also minorly buff its max cap and cap recharge to compensate for that loss and to keep mwd fits viable
3. give the ishkur a web strength bonus 5% per level as its much asked-for 4th bonus
4. give the enyo an AB speed bonus of 7.5% per level as its much asked-for 4th bonus
5. buff the resists, both armor and shield, on all gallente ships currently bonused into active tanking (not by a lot just a little nudge)
6. make many or all hybrid tracking bonuses into 10% per level, particularly for battleships (mega/kronos/whatevs)
7. give the sin a tracking bonus instead of an align time bonus
8. make armor reppers cycle at the beginning
9. continue with buffage to base movement stats for all hybrid-bonused ships, giving them an extra inch on speed and agility
10. continue with buffage to all blaster and railgun stats including easier fittings for blasters, less cap use for all, buffed tracking for BOTH railguns and blasters and buffed damage for BOTH railguns and blasters
11. completely revamp information warfare links to be useful

and a weird, separate proposal:

12. people currently pretty much only utilize the antimatter ammos for blasters and don't use rails at all, so we can really just revamp hybrid ammos without any concern for players whining.
a. there should be less granularity in hybrid ammo as it is currently unnecessary and people do NOT care about the wide variety of minutely-different non-antimatter T1 ammos for hybrids. they should double up, so thorium has the same range/slightly less damage as anti plutonium/uranium would be similar, so would tungsten and iron and so on. all the "slightly lower damage, same range" ammos would deal kinetic/EM not theraml/kin.
b. void and spike would stay as they are, but null would get a buff to dps and switch to EM/kinetic and javelin would get both an optinal buff and a dps buff and switch to EM/kinetic.
c. even weirder would be making these ammo adjustments do explo/EM which would be BIZARRE but ultimately sexy. or make it kin/therm/EM.

then maybe we will start to see gallente ships getting more heavily used, even if only for gang warfare
Kami Lincoln
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2011-11-07 04:03:51 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Im no expert, but the more people write about this, I think ultimately the simple fixes are the best. Other fixes, which might be better, are just going to be too complicated for CCP to implement. So, a summary of the simple ideas that will help are:

1. Increase blaster damage and tracking to obscene levels. + 50% at least.
2. Increase speed on all Gallente boats. They have to be the fastest (or close to) if they have the shortest range.

It doesnt fix our tanking or drone issues, but it makes our ships feared again, at least in their limited roles. No one will want to get close and if they do, they will be sure to pay. Its something at least.

Giving gallente a FAST specialized web drone that is actually useful may be helpful too. If we have good blaster damage, we can spare drones for projecting a web...


For a moment I thought you were being sarcastic... but thats hilarious... Now that Hybrid charges don't use any increased cap, the turrets use less power grid, less cpu, let's make Blasters, that even before the patch did good damage unstoppable, 50% MOAR damage, and their already ridiculous tracking to being able to hit an interceptor and destroy most ships with 1 shot! Seriously people, if your going to suggest something utterly ridiculous, post it outside the feedback forum.
Sylar Reuwich
Hek Trade and Industries
#36 - 2011-11-07 09:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylar Reuwich
Ganthrithor wrote:

If you're going to insist on denying the Gallente boats range bonuses (seriously, pulse laser boats get optimal, AC boats get falloff, and blaster boats get the shortest ranges and no bonsus? Really?) then you need to make them absolute killdozers instead. Either make blasters do obscene amounts of damage (rather than "marginally more on paper but less dps at any range over 7km in actuality" as they do currently) or give Gallente ships large amounts of slots (since they need to devote at least two slots to tackling, unlike ships that can function at longer ranges), give them web bonuses (range, strength, or both), or give them immunity to MWD-impairing effects or something to give them some way to disengage from fights.

As it is, by flying a Gallente ship you gain ~15% more dps but trade that for ~95% worse survivability. You have to charge right into web/scram range of your target in a ship with no tank. This assumes a shield / nano fitting, since if you do fit an armor tank you'll never get into blaster range in the first place.


This exactly. Well pretty much anyway. I have had some success with many shield buffered gank ships since they have the speed to get into range and the DPS with those fits just about makes up for the weak shield buffer once in range imo but then you end up gimping your tackle and you're not even using the type of tank that the race is supposed to use :S

As far as active armour goes, the only T1 ship I prefer to use reps with over plates is a Myrm. 3 of them. Because it seems only when you have 3 reps on a ship bonused for reps do have a decent chance to take as much damage as a plate setup in high DPS situations. I feel there is something quite possibly wrong about this..If only there were a way to make them more effective in high DPS situations without overpowering them in solo/small gang.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#37 - 2011-11-07 09:34:08 UTC
I tested it out with new changes and i think blasters still need 15% more bonus to optimal and faloff plus 2% less cap use.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2011-11-07 13:34:35 UTC
I spent a couple of hours on SiSi last night playing with the Oracle, Talos, and Tornado. The Oracle is an amazing scorch-sniper, the Tornado is fast as anything and an amazing skirmish ship with 800's-- as agile as a Vagabond, fast enough to outrun most things that threaten it, good enough tracking/range to blap tacklers that try and burn after it-- it's a beautiful poor-man's Machariel.

Then there's the Talos, which is basically completely useless. Either it fits an armor tank and handles poorly or it fits a shield / nano fit, handles decently, but has the EHP of a wet paper bag. This wouldn't trouble me so much if it weren't for the fact that it seems totally incapable of doing any damage ever. It doesn't do damage to cruisers (cant track well enough to hit them inside its optimal, can't do enough damage to be relevant once it's far enough away to track), it can't hit frigates at all (even from 30+ km with null and a tracking enhancer) and although I guess it can hit battleships / other BCs by the time it gets into range and slows down to non-prop speeds to un-**** its tracking it's usually nearly dead anyway.

If the Talos had a 90% web bonus that allowed it to pin cruisers / bad frigate pilots and blap them the ship would be useful. If it had range bonuses that allowed it to engage with blasters at long enough ranges that its tracking wouldn't render the guns useless, it would be useful. If it kept its current configuration but with enough EHP to go toe to toe with bigger ships it can track, it would be useful. As is it's just awful. The Oracle was amazing for kiting + sniping cruisers and up for ~550 dps. The Tornado is just all-around excellent. I'll confess I didn't test the Naga because it's hideous and the only fit I'd fly would be a rail sniper (boring) or blaster boat (without as much tracking as the Talos, lolol like that's a thing). The Talos was aeons behind the other three ships in terms of usefulness. I was really, really excited about this ship but it looks like in actuality I'll probably fly it once on TQ for novelty value, lose it in the first engagement before I get to do any damage, and then stick to flying a Tornado for the rest of ever.
Insane Randomness
Stellar Pilgrimage
#39 - 2011-11-09 05:32:07 UTC
Any devs looking at this? No? I'm thinking we should all challenge CCP Habakuk to a 1v1 PvP fight and force him too use a thron/hyperion/myrmidon/talos and give him a "Fair" fight in a minmatar ship. See what happens.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-11-10 05:04:30 UTC
Just looking at some fits on the 3 racial close-range turrets, using the shortest, high-damage ammo/crystals.

800mm Repeating siege II = 3km optimal + 24km falloff
Mega pulse laser II = 15km optimal + 10km falloff
Neutron blaster II = 4.5km optimal + 13km falloff

The OP is absolutely right in that armour-tanked ships that have speed issues should not be using the shortest range weapons, unless they do a crapton of damage. Both AC's and pulse lasers in the example can hit at 25km at roughly 50% accuracy, whereas the blasters are far shorter.

One solution that presents itself is to modify blasters to be in-between pulse lasers and AC's in terms of range.

Neutron blaster II = 9km optimal + 17km falloff (Probably with a reduction in tracking and damage).

Oh, and I thought the Gallente Afterburner bonus idea was fantastic, that would probably also help Cool
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