These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

First post First post
Author
Lili Lu
#21 - 2011-11-05 23:44:04 UTC
Dondoran wrote:
CCP come on T2 gang links thats just to muchEvil

35.2% bonus from a tech3 WINRoll

FIX off grid boosting its the right thing to doBear

remember fleet command shipsBig smile


Agreed. Tech III command subsystem stepped all over command ships. Possibly the increased cpu requirements of tech II links will negate some of the tech III faggotry, but probably not enough of a fitting cost to prevent the tech III idiocy. Tech III should not do command, hac, recon, etc better than tech II. You really ****** this up.

Make links only work on-grid and that will restore command ships to their rightful place at the top of providing buffs.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2011-11-06 04:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Last night I used my 4M points to train tactical weapon Reconfiguration to level 5 in a second.
We undock a small dread fleet to kill a titan, I used the new T2 Siege module. This is my report:

Differences between t1 and t2:

700 -840 damage multiplier (20% difference)
-75% - 70% scan resolution bonus (6,66% difference)
locket targets 2-3 (33% difference)

first we can see there is no coherence between the values! The numbers seem to have been given by chance. The locket target needs to be an integer so I understand the 33%, but the scan resolution difference should be in the same percentage than the damage difference -> 20%. 6,66 is a joke, its nothing!

we went to battle:

First I want to report a bug, my weapons where grouped but I got the damage report in the monitor of only one gun:

[ 2011.11.05 01:45:28 ] (combat) Your Rift Citadel Torpedo hits NTT Neverdie [SDG]<SOLAR>(Erebus), doing 4002,2 damage.

I looked in the logs and in there I can see 3 entries separated... should I've the report sum the 3 hits and report me the total when weapons are grouped?

[ 2011.11.05 01:45:28 ] (combat) Your Rift Citadel Torpedo hits NTT Neverdie [SDG]<SOLAR>(Erebus), doing 4002,2 damage.
[ 2011.11.05 01:45:28 ] (combat) Your Rift Citadel Torpedo hits NTT Neverdie [SDG]<SOLAR>(Erebus), doing 4002,2 damage.
[ 2011.11.05 01:45:28 ] (combat) Your Rift Citadel Torpedo hits NTT Neverdie [SDG]<SOLAR>(Erebus), doing 4002,2 damage.

(I want to say that the logs I copy to here are of armor hits and the titan was stopped.)

now the surprise...The titan starts aligning and I get this:

[ 2011.11.05 01:45:42 ] (combat) Your Rift Citadel Torpedo hits NTT Neverdie [SDG]<SOLAR>(Erebus), doing 2579,2 damage.

I will assume that the there is a bug because I do not want to belive a titan was tanking some damage by going 50m a second! It went from 4002 to 2759! no capital should tank another capital weapon just because its moving!!! please check this because that explosion velocity penalty in siege seems to be causing this!?

(later the titan died in a big of fire)

My final conclusions:

To use weapon Reconfiguration a pilot needs level 5. This means a 32 to 40 days training depending of implants and how the pilots attributes are mapped.

32 days is a long time! the only thing this module offers is a 20% damage bonus from a t1. The scan resolution bonus is a joke! the locked target bonus nobody cares since in a cap fleet we follow the primary and lock the secondary, having 3 targets makes no difference in a dread, the time it takes to kill a capital is big so we have time to lock another target before we kill the current one, no need for more.

So in the end, 32 days just for 20% more damage!

For a ship that we give very few use and wen it comes out normally goes in a fleet were there are other 30 to 40 capitals, that means my 20% more damage capability makes no difference at all in the middle of all the combined fleet DPS.

Nobody uses a dread alone, in a sub-cap 20% is a lot , but for a capital that is in a cap fleet, one or 2 having 20% more damage output is nothing in comparation with the total damage a cap fleet does, so nobody will lose its training time going after the skill L5.

Sorry but I don't see any reason to train to 5 just to get this module.

Having in mind that only a small % of the eve pilots fly capitals and from these pool only a even smaller %has a dread, and from that pool only a few really use them nowadays, this module is going to be very rarelly used... -> one dead horse

Please review its access conditions. To be used by dread pilots re-thing the level the pilot has to train the Tactical weapon Reconfiguration before it can use it. My recommendation goes to L4. If L5 is to stay them rethink the bonus this module gives in comparation to the t1 module, because like it stands is not worted and its a total waste of training time.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-06 13:43:04 UTC
erm... Just wanted to ask something... Are you saying that a TWENTY PERCENT damage boost is nothing? You do realize that most increments in eve are for 5% or 3% damage per skill level? here with just one more skill level you basically gain what other skills need 4 levels to achieve. 20% damage boost is HUGE. And it's not only that, since there are the locked targets bonus AND the resolution bonus. While the resolution bonus by itself may be small enough to be barely noticeable, it's on top of the other changes and believe me, on ANY ship, if there was a module that could grant a 20% increase in damage, everybody would be fitting it.
Vilgan Mazran
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Deepwater Hooligans
#24 - 2011-11-06 14:00:05 UTC
T2 triage module seems really underwhelming. Ohter than that, changes look good.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#25 - 2011-11-06 14:57:22 UTC
Lyria Celeste wrote:

The only advantage of the Sisters Core Proble Launcher compared to the T2 is less CPU Requirement, would be nice if there would be something else that sets them appart since CPU is seldom a Consideration when fitting Ships for probing.


CPU is actually a *huge* issue on certain fits (especially for fits using the expanded launcher, such as recons and covops) and the Sister expanded launcher with the lower CPU is the only one you can possibly use.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2011-11-06 15:56:04 UTC
The T2 Drone upgrades really make it clear the Ishtar needs some more CPU.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-11-06 19:26:19 UTC
Nevare Wong wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
whats the cpu requirement on the omnidirectional tracking link II


It's 39 cpu the same as the what the fed navy version is on tq, however currently on sis the fed navy is now at 36 cpu

With such low fitting requirements and the same pre-reqs as the tech 1 version this will make the fed navy version worthless.
This needs to be changed. A tech 2 mod should not have the same skill requirements as a tech 1 mod.

I would suggest at the least that it should require drone sharpshooting 5 and possibly sentry 5. Otherwise there is no reason to ever fit the fed navy version except for slightly lower cpu, which really would only be for the ishtar since the domi has plenty of cpu for sentry fits anyways.


i agree with you, and ive no issue with that considering ive both at 5. im happy it doesnt have insane CPU requirements.
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2011-11-07 02:03:10 UTC
T2 gang links seem okay. A nice boost over T1, but not too overpowered. I agree with other posters regarding T3 boosters needing a nerf though. Reducing boost amount and/or on grid boosting all seem reasonable ideas to me.

New siege module looks pretty good, bonus amounts seem fine to me. Totally agree on the underwhelming triage module.
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-07 02:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Yvan Ratamnim
How about for triage T2 add cap-regen 15% bonus while in siege mode, that will help more than most other things, hell i'd train for it if it did that lol

and i have to agree with the siege T2... a t2 sieged dread can't hit a barely moving titan?!

havent tested the others yet...
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-11-07 03:59:02 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Dondoran wrote:
CCP come on T2 gang links thats just to muchEvil

35.2% bonus from a tech3 WINRoll

FIX off grid boosting its the right thing to doBear

remember fleet command shipsBig smile


Agreed. Tech III command subsystem stepped all over command ships. Possibly the increased cpu requirements of tech II links will negate some of the tech III faggotry, but probably not enough of a fitting cost to prevent the tech III idiocy. Tech III should not do command, hac, recon, etc better than tech II. You really ****** this up.

Make links only work on-grid and that will restore command ships to their rightful place at the top of providing buffs.



if you took the time to invest in your skill plan properly you would see that FCS' still are better than t3 booster

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2011-11-07 09:20:43 UTC
Gecko O'Bac wrote:
erm... Just wanted to ask something... Are you saying that a TWENTY PERCENT damage boost is nothing? You do realize that most increments in eve are for 5% or 3% damage per skill level? here with just one more skill level you basically gain what other skills need 4 levels to achieve. 20% damage boost is HUGE. And it's not only that, since there are the locked targets bonus AND the resolution bonus. While the resolution bonus by itself may be small enough to be barely noticeable, it's on top of the other changes and believe me, on ANY ship, if there was a module that could grant a 20% increase in damage, everybody would be fitting it.


Its all about the context this ship operates and nothing else that makes this module usage a dead horse because nobody will want to use 32-40 days of his training to get it.

20% in any other ship, including a titan, is excellent, and I will train for it on the spot!

But in a Dread its all about the context they operate on and we have to make a decision between the 1 - training time vs 2 - bonus it gives vs 3 - the difference it will make it the end of the day

1 - 32 to 40 days training
2 - 20% more damage
3 - none at all -> because you are in a cap fleet, your dps is a drop of water in a full cup, second you are in siege, so its 5 minutes you are stuck putting damage in the target. Individually putting more 20% and the fleet killing a target 2 seconds before the normal expected time will make no difference because you have to wait the 5m to end!

No alliance cap fleet requirements will make pilots train 32 days for this, so in a fleet 1 or 2 pilots train this will makes no difference at the end of the day for them or the fleet they are in.

Having this context in perspective, this specific module and bonus for a DREAD ship, and only this ship, is a waste of time spending 32 days to get it, sorry, but it is what it is.

So my final conclusions remains, or this module gives something more bonus that compensates an individual pilot going for it having in mind the context of Dreads in Eve/Fleets, or CCP lowers the bar and allows pilots to go for it at L4, because 5-8 days training for L4 is an acceptable training time for 20% more damage and alliances will make dread pilots go for it, 32-40 is not.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#32 - 2011-11-07 10:30:44 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
because 5-8 days training for L4 is an acceptable training time for 20% more damage and alliances will make dread pilots go for it, 32-40 is not.


Nope. For a highly advanced T2 Module like the Siege Module, 30 days are a reasonable amount of time.
You have to consider that we are talking about a capital ship, not a simple battleship or battlecruiser.
Capitals are, or should be (Ratting carriers go to hell!), not used for your daily activities, but are designed for very specific tasks.
And the task of a dreadnought is to kill big things quick. While the tank of a dread seems impressive at first glance, one must consider that most of their targets pack enough punch to break this tank without too much problem. That considered, a tanking bonus would be quite useless, as it would just delay the dead of the dread for a few seconds. A tracking bonus would be great, of course (and the Phoenix would absolutely love [and needs] a reduced explosion velocity), but it could easily break the balance of the dreads, more than any other possible bonus.

Regarding T2 ganglinks, I think that they should only be useable by FCS. T3 were just nerfed a few months ago when the scanning threshold was removed. Buffing them again would be a horrible, horrible decision. And players should of course be rewarded for actually fielding their commandship, instead of having a T3 at a Pos/ warping between safespots.

T2 triage is absolutely worthless. A immobile ship with about 180km locking range und 52km rr-range does not need 20% more target range.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2011-11-07 11:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Klingon Admiral wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
because 5-8 days training for L4 is an acceptable training time for 20% more damage and alliances will make dread pilots go for it, 32-40 is not.


Nope. For a highly advanced T2 Module like the Siege Module, 30 days are a reasonable amount of time.
You have to consider that we are talking about a capital ship, not a simple battleship or battlecruiser.
Capitals are, or should be (Ratting carriers go to hell!), not used for your daily activities, but are designed for very specific tasks.
And the task of a dreadnought is to kill big things quick. While the tank of a dread seems impressive at first glance, one must consider that most of their targets pack enough punch to break this tank without too much problem. That considered, a tanking bonus would be quite useless, as it would just delay the dead of the dread for a few seconds. A tracking bonus would be great, of course (and the Phoenix would absolutely love [and needs] a reduced explosion velocity), but it could easily break the balance of the dreads, more than any other possible bonus.

(...)


I agree with you that a capital module like this must deserve some importance and putting it on the top of a training skill (L5) gives it this importance, but I still stand that the bonus it gives Today is not worth the time to get there.

You suggested that the module should give more bonus and that is one of the 2 solutions I propose in my earlier post: -> give more so people want it. But I leave open a second solution, If CCP doesn’t want to give more bonus, then it has to lower the bar. In the context of Dreads, 32 days for only these bonus will make this module one for item collectors in Eve and nothing more.

I agree with you, an extra bonus that gives a flat % to all resistances, (without accumulation penalties of others already in place) will be a nice step to deserve a training, even so some other bonus are needed, starting by improving the already existent scan resolution bonus to a better value of 20% instead of 6,6% and given a bonus to reduce the explosion velocity also around 20% and at that moment we have a Capital module T2 that I will train for no question about it.

(Side note: The HP/resistance issue bonus for triage dreads is an open issue for some time now. The idea I have, and many people I discuss this with, about Dreads in Siege, is that they behave like a POS during the Siege, they stop moving and starts hammering DPS like a Mother F*, so they should also tank more like a POS and it doesn't !! they are paper, a super kills one in siege in less than a minute with 20 bombers. Since giving them more HP seams a little too much, at least giving them more resistances will be a good start, anyway we are using Stront, isn't this that makes POS became invul after an reinforcement, why can't a Siege module consuming Stront give little more resistances to a dread? it makes all the sense in the world! In conclusion: --> Siege modules should have bonus to resistances, even the T1 ! T1 triage while active should give some flat resistance % to a Dread (without accumulation penalties of others already in place), the T2 should give a more.)


Klingon Admiral wrote:

T2 triage is absolutely worthless. A immobile ship with about 180km locking range und 52km rr-range does not need 20% more target range.


Totally agree, couldn't test it in sisi because I have no skills for it, but looking at the stats, nobody will want it.. once again 32 days for range, lol..
Give a couple of bonus related with cap recharge rate and RR range and it might be worth the time to train for it, otherwise...

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2011-11-07 11:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
If the devs responsibles could gives us some feedback on our feedback so we don't feel that we lost time testing and looking to the modules for nothing, thanks...

we are sensitive players, we need hugs and attention -> lets go, group hug between devs and players! -> feedback please. Big smile

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-11-07 12:38:54 UTC
Make navy omnidir links 30%, t2 makes these obsolete and drones sorta need abit more love....

Drone Navigation Computer, possibly worth fitting if the t2 version was 35%.... 25% to 30% is just an insult considering it's plain t1 to t2.

As many others said, boost t2 triage module

Nerf t3's down to FC ganglink strength.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-07 13:12:12 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:

3 - none at all -> because you are in a cap fleet, your dps is a drop of water in a full cup, second you are in siege, so its 5 minutes you are stuck putting damage in the target. Individually putting more 20% and the fleet killing a target 2 seconds before the normal expected time will make no difference because you have to wait the 5m to end!


I'm not sure I agree with this. For instance, let's say you're firing at target X for 100 dps. For 5 minutes. Target x has around 33k hp. You have to fire at it for more than 1 cycle, thus commiting for 10 minutes. Enter 20% damage boost. The target now is subject to 120 dps for 5 minutes, totalling 36k damage. Boom. You can now leave after the first cycle.

Another scenario: Fleet x is firing against a supercap. Supercap getting it for 20% more damage than before, with the same tank. Target goes down around 20% faster, meaning you take less casualties as well, since the enemy has less time to fire on you.

Another scenario: Fleet x is firing against a supercap. Usually it'd take around 100 dreads (easy number for example, ofc) to bring it down in time. With the 20% damage boost, you only need 84. It means you can attack or defend yourself more reliably even when momentarily low on numbers.

So, with this... I agree, it's not like having a normal damage mod on another ship. It's the siege mode on a dread... But it's still 20% boost. The 30ish days are kinda the bare minimum, perhaps it won't be a "hard" requirement for corp members, but I can see why it would be advised to train it. Afterall I'm training large autocannons spec for a whopping 2% increase in damage, and the training time is around the same.
Alberik
Eusebius Corporation
#37 - 2011-11-07 17:10:17 UTC
With the T2 mining laser field enhancement the range of a T2 Stripminer will be about 24.824km when used with an orca (a bit more with a rorqual) but a survey scanner still has a maximum range of 22.5km.
how about increasing the range of the survey scanners, maybe either by skill, boost the module it self or via the mindlink?

Fioda Skiza
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-11-07 19:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Fioda Skiza
boost the Sisters' Probe Launcher.
you are killing this module.

I think an additional 10% scan deviation bonus and 10% scan time bonus for the Sister's launchers would be nice.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#39 - 2011-11-07 21:05:20 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Tech III should not do command, hac, recon, etc better than tech II. You really ****** this up.


Basically what you are saying is that we shouldnt have tech 3 ships at all. Lets face it, if a particular ship of any type isnt "the best" for the job at hand, why pick it?

The fleet command ships have the advantage of carrying 3 links without penalty and can generally tank better than command configured T3s - which is precisely WHY you would use the T3s off grid. Ideally u would want it with the fleet, but if ist just gonna die anyway, u need to adjust. Offgrid is not unproblematic, especialy in moving fleets. I think its a fair tradeoff.

As for the T2 links, it increases the difference between the haves and the have-nots of fleets, the organized and the unorganized. Command ships and command links encourages organization, a goal which is at the very foundation of what EVE is about.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#40 - 2011-11-07 21:48:52 UTC
Bomb Launcher II is... well... I would never train for it. Given the cost of what it will likely be on the market, even when princes are stable, it isn't worth the extra money given the fragile nature of stealth bombers and certainly isn't worth the extra training time to get it.

Sorry CCP. Still love you for the destroyer changes though.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans