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Seriously? That's some incredibly bad game design EVE.

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Jose Black
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-06-14 13:52:16 UTC
Meis Aminx wrote:

Then it really wasn't his was it? So why did it complete his quest?

Bad design.

You can suckle from the neckbeards at CCP all you want.

The design is exclusionary, not inclusionary. That's the whole premise behind the OP's original post.

If it didn't complete his quest because it wasn't his he'd still taken it. Either with evil intentions or just out of cluelessness (my guess).
Mission areas aren't sharded exclusive unscannable areas for a reason. Nothing there is yours - by definition and by design. You have to fight for what is yours. And if you don't want to fight you are free to leave.

And to mention it the second time: you could still kindly ask even the most evil behaving pilot if you might have the stolen item back. Please just don't steal it back to give him the right to shoot at you right away. There's always more options to win a game than to bring the biggest gun. Eve rewards smart people and gets loved for that.
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#42 - 2013-06-14 13:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Menda
Meis Aminx wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.


No.

1. Stealing is allowed in EVE. He stole the loot.

2. Cause in the first place...don't let people steal your loot.


Then it really wasn't his was it? So why did it complete his quest?

Bad design.

You can suckle from the neckbeards at CCP all you want.

The design is exclusionary, not inclusionary. That's the whole premise behind the OP's original post.


And what do you base the assumption on that he completed his quest.

Do you have actual facts to proof he did even was on the same MISSION (WoW has quests).

Do you have proof he did complete it if he was actually on it.

Do you have proof that besides stealing your mission item he just did not complete his mission pocket before that.

The OP assumes that the other player was on the same mission and used HIS item to complete the quest (which is impossible cause the objective only gets a green tick if you kill Dagan in your own pocket).


To OP:

Keep shouting Bad design...nobody will agree cause it isn't bad design.

It's bad intelligence from your side
It's bad decision making from your side.
It's bad knowledge about the game and it's mechanics from your side.
It's your error for thinking that EVE is like WoW.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#43 - 2013-06-14 13:59:30 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Maxx Kilbride wrote:
On top of this, how can you keep arguing that it's not a poor mechanic when a Game Master has to come and reset the quest? Cmon now. Don't be stupid here.

The SoE arc is regarded as part of the new player experience and the GMs will always help a new player who has accidentally messed up, even in situations where the game is working as intended.

You wouldn't get the same sympathy from them if you did something similar in a regular mission.

Oh, and there's no such thing as a "quest" in EVE. A lot of people will get upset if you continue to use that term.


Agreed.

SoE are part of the NPE and thus get special attention.

But fact still remains...game works as intended.

OP made a big mistake and immediately starts a whining rage thread how the game is wrong cause made an error.

If you want to be shielded from making mistakes, there are other MMOs. Don't expect EVE to hold your hand and give you some candy. EVE punches you in the face and takes any candy you brought.

And there are plenty of genuine players in and around Arnon to help new players with Dagan. Fact still remains...Don't trust them completely.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#44 - 2013-06-14 14:00:19 UTC
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.

Get out.
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#45 - 2013-06-14 14:19:04 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.

Get out.


HJ, though I agree with your points and feel exactly like you.

Keep in mind that personal attacks and bad mouthing against new players is NOT good for your forum health.
CCP might sent you on a mandatory holiday if you keep doing it.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
Oraac Ensor
#46 - 2013-06-14 14:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.
1. Because one of the fundamental principles of EVE is the ability to steal from other players.

2. Because one of the fundamental principles of EVE is the ability to intervene in another players' missions and ruin their day.

Both principles working perfectly in this case = good game design.

Meis Aminx wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
No.

1. Stealing is allowed in EVE. He stole the loot.

2. Cause in the first place...don't let people steal your loot.


Then it really wasn't his was it? So why did it complete his quest?

Bad design.
First, there are no "quests" in EVE.

We don't know if the other player actually had a Dagan mission of his own. Even if he did, the agent merely requires the delivery of Dagan's corpse - how that corpse is acquired is irrelevant.

(RL example: if you bought a lottery ticket and I stole it, the fact that it wasn't "mine" wouldn't prevent me from claiming any reward it won.)

Game working exactly as intended = good design.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#47 - 2013-06-14 14:23:32 UTC
Ace Menda wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.

Get out.


HJ, though I agree with your points and feel exactly like you.

Keep in mind that personal attacks and bad mouthing against new players is NOT good for your forum health.
CCP might sent you on a mandatory holiday if you keep doing it.



I don't care about things that would hurt them more than me. Twisted


....aaaand this is exactly the type of stuff new guys will hear if they spout off like that in game so it's a good representation of the NPE in EVE.
Oraac Ensor
#48 - 2013-06-14 14:33:02 UTC
Ace Menda wrote:
The OP assumes that the other player was on the same mission and used HIS item to complete the quest (which is impossible cause the objective only gets a green tick if you kill Dagan in your own pocket.

Are you sure about that? I thought you get a green tick if you present the agent with Dagan's corpse, however you might have acquired it. Why else would anyone steal it and put it on contract?
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#49 - 2013-06-14 14:41:55 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
The OP assumes that the other player was on the same mission and used HIS item to complete the quest (which is impossible cause the objective only gets a green tick if you kill Dagan in your own pocket.

Are you sure about that? I thought you get a green tick if you present the agent with Dagan's corpse, however you might have acquired it. Why else would anyone steal it and put it on contract?


Cause people like the OP need to buy it in the first place cause they let others steal it from them.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-06-14 14:42:07 UTC
Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:
Woah... I actually have to flame a new player. The end is near indeed..... This better be a troll, but I'm biting regardless.

Maxx Kilbride wrote:
I swear I've never seen a community more stuck up it's own ******* than EVE Online. My god. They can't take any VALID criticism.


What valid criticism. Key items are unique, and spawned for each mission. He stole it from under your nose, which, while a ****/inmature move, is allowed. It's how EVE works, and trusting somebody to "help" you brings risks with it

Quote:

I was led to believe the EVE Community was mature due to the "complexity" of it. I was led astray, I guess, just like with this mission.


Let me guess, you also believe games like Call of Duty are made for adults....

Quote:
EVE's community is on the same level as 4Chan or WoW's.


Lets see, the 2 largest Alliances hail from Something Awful(Goons) Which has an Eye-Cancer inducing layout, Reddit(TEST), which has an Eye-cancer inducing layout, and both of them have a large 4chan following, which is... suprise supise, another site with an eye-cancer inducing layout.

Being able to build a self substainable Dwarf Fortress should be a requirment to register.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q


ISK can be earned back, Standings can be grinded up again. Effort is needed to become a member of this community. You have no idea how hard I laugh at people who ask questions about the tutorial missions that are explained before even accepting the missions. You got duped, grow some skin.

If you want to play a game where you can go braindead, play CoD or something, I doubt you could handle WoW. (Or become an AFK miner. I look forward to seeing your whine post about how you lost your Mining Barge in High Security.


No! Then he'll be back here whining about how it's bad design that not all the ore in the game goes straight to him

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Meis Aminx
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-06-14 14:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Meis Aminx
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.


Never said I didn't like the game. Your comments don't bother me at all. Enjoy your flames.

I was merely stating that the mission had to be reset, since someone else took his item..

I guess CCP prefers employing GMs to perform menial ingame resets over providing players a less frustrating experience.

I'm all for stealing other peoples stuff.

I just don't agree with it affecting mission items.
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#52 - 2013-06-14 14:43:26 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.

Get out.


HJ, though I agree with your points and feel exactly like you.

Keep in mind that personal attacks and bad mouthing against new players is NOT good for your forum health.
CCP might sent you on a mandatory holiday if you keep doing it.



I don't care about things that would hurt them more than me. Twisted


....aaaand this is exactly the type of stuff new guys will hear if they spout off like that in game so it's a good representation of the NPE in EVE.



HJ, That's why I said I totally agree with your points.

I'm laying low. My main already is sitting out a mandatory holiday enforced by CCP.
And I don't like to sugar coat EVE stuff...EVE is harsh, so the way I teach people is harsh too.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#53 - 2013-06-14 14:45:05 UTC
Meis Aminx wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.


Never said I didn't like the game. Your comments don't bother me at all. Enjoy your flames.

I was merely stating that the mission had to be reset, since someone else took his item..

I guess CCP prefers employing GMs to perform menial ingame resets over providing players a less frustrating experience.

I'm all for stealing other peoples stuff.

I just don't agree with it affecting mission items.


Then what is the point of stealing.

Stealing something that has no real matter to a player is not fun.

Having you rage cause somebody stole your mission item...that is fun.

Are you in need of some nice chat? Are you new and want some help? Look no further and join: Crazy Dutch Guy
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-06-14 14:45:24 UTC
Oh man, if you are already raging now, wait till you discover the rest of the game! :P

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Oraac Ensor
#55 - 2013-06-14 14:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Oraac Ensor
Ace Menda wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
The OP assumes that the other player was on the same mission and used HIS item to complete the quest (which is impossible cause the objective only gets a green tick if you kill Dagan in your own pocket.

Are you sure about that? I thought you get a green tick if you present the agent with Dagan's corpse, however you might have acquired it. Why else would anyone steal it and put it on contract?


Cause people like the OP need to buy it in the first place cause they let others steal it from them.

Exactly my point - your comment about only getting a green tick if you kill Dagan in your own pocket is incorrect. You can kill him (or steal his corpse) in another player's pocket and turn in the corpse in your own pocket to complete your mission.
Meis Aminx
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-06-14 14:55:09 UTC
Ace Menda wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Meis Aminx wrote:
What none of the fanboys will address:

1. If it was YOUR mission reward, why would CCP let the other player loot it?

2. If YOU didn't loot the needed quest item, then why did it partially complete the objective preventing you from acquiring the item?


I'll tell you why. Bad game design. OP, your initial hunch is not far from the truth.

CCP could do much better, they just won't. They are largely content with catering to their niche crowd.



Here I'll address your dumbshit:

1.) If it was my mission reward I wouldn't need CCP to add a mechanic to protect it. Stealing is allowed as well as buying mission items from the market or contracts to complete stuff.

2.) YOU foolishly trusted someone, put him in a fleet and gave him the mission pocket . That means he is your buddy. Your buddy screwed you.

We're very happy with CCP catering to their niche crowd which doesn't include pussies like you.


Never said I didn't like the game. Your comments don't bother me at all. Enjoy your flames.

I was merely stating that the mission had to be reset, since someone else took his item..

I guess CCP prefers employing GMs to perform menial ingame resets over providing players a less frustrating experience.

I'm all for stealing other peoples stuff.

I just don't agree with it affecting mission items.


Then what is the point of stealing.

Stealing something that has no real matter to a player is not fun.

Having you rage cause somebody stole your mission item...that is fun.


I get that.. I really do.

Having GMs reset the mission (and the ability to do that) both negates the antagonists ability to have any real effect on the other player and somewhat discredits the utility of any effort to do so.
Oraac Ensor
#57 - 2013-06-14 15:06:40 UTC
Meis Aminx wrote:
Having GMs reset the mission (and the ability to do that) both negates the antagonists ability to have any real effect on the other player and somewhat discredits the utility of any effort to do so.

But only, as you say, "somewhat".

There's always likely to be someone who doesn't know all the options and is willing to pay.
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2013-06-14 15:08:55 UTC
Maxx Kilbride wrote:
I swear I've never seen a community more stuck up it's own ******* than EVE Online. My god. They can't take any VALID criticism. Even if they know they're in the wrong, they will constantly at as if not. It's like a religious, like a cult. They so badly want to be away from all the WoW clones they convince themselves that EVE is perfect and nothing is wrong, and if someone doesn't like something about EVE, they're in the wrong regardless of the issue.

I was led to believe the EVE Community was mature due to the "complexity" of it. I was led astray, I guess, just like with this mission.


EVE's community is on the same level as 4Chan or WoW's. No better, no worse. Most communities in games are like this these days. I'm glad I could dispel my own personal curiosity to see if people talking about how EVE was a "mature game for mature people"

It's not. Not that it's bad, I just wish people would stop perpetuating such falsities.



EvE does have the most mature MMO community .. its just that alot of them dont spend their time posting on the forums .. they have jobs and families and corps in game to support .. the forums are full of trolls and macho-nerds who need to tell you are wrong to feel better about their own patheticness.

that being said . EvE is a harsh mistress, and yes if two people have the same mission, you must both do it to both get the reward.. which makes more sense than two people being able to split a single object. I have always hated that in other MMO .. seems so game-y that everyone in a party gets the same single reward from a mission.

Anyhow - obviously you disagree with the notion .. which is well and good .. but it has been that way since the begining of missions and will not change i am betting. So adapt and overcome - or you will fail and be all bitter and end up leaving a superior MMO.

History is the study of change.

Dark Hominy
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-06-14 16:24:24 UTC
Maxx, if you have the gm reset the mission, ask in CAS chat for help. Don't expect imediate results. Have patience.

Be polite and state that you need help killing Dagan in "system link".

Many of the CAS vets will be willing to help if they are close and have time.


I agree that this part of the system is broken. Especially for a newbie epic arc.

For regular missions, storyline arcs and eploration/combat sites, loot is yoinkable. We just have to live with that or team up and gank whomever it is that is trying to steal your booty.


Be careful posting in the forums, they are full of trolls and foaming mouthed fanbois.
Marmaduke Hatplate
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-06-14 16:45:06 UTC
Yikes, I feel for the OP, but I'm glad I found out about this piece of 'interesting' game design.

I've been playing for 8 days, along with a friend who started at the same time. We've both finished the tutorials, and the career paths, and were looking forward to teaming up for the SoE questline. We like to interact with each other a bit more than just chatting on skype while we mine lol.

However, if Eve's mechanics are designed to prevemt fleeting for missions, I guess we'll just separately solo them.

Incidentally, she's one of my best friends in RL, so Eve's 'Trust nobody!' chestnut isn't 100% accurate advice, at least in my case. But the well-documented tendency of Eve to encourage backstabbery and crappy behaviour towards other people has however already made me decline 4 offers to join corps so far. Nobody's yet explained why doing so would make my game any better.

Incidentally, I too think the OP has identified a less-thsn-stellar piece of game design, but I'm not 'whining' about it. It is what it is. More advance warning would have been nice, though.

"Friends and fun...The only 2 really important things in EVE Online." - Crazy Dutch Guy