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To Federals, Regarding Heth
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Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-06-12 14:17:34 UTC
Anslo wrote:
So basically Sorjat, you're just trying to stir the pot and get people upset like Steff. So it's safe to ignore you? Cool.

Last word of advice to you though? I don't suggest crossing the border unless you want shot....oh, same goes with shooting non-Heth Caldari ships in our space (if they have to enter). Pretty sure a few Fed citizen's might not take too kindly to that.


Captain Anslo, I think your retort borders on being childish and I'll have you know that one of my favorite destinations is a shopping mall on Jita IV IV... but I digress.

If you take a moment to read what I have been saying you'll note that it was to defend our space and mobilize our forces. I feel a large scale action is imminent and like all things in this universe, it will be decided by capsuleers. You honour the highest ideals of the Federation by volunteering your clone and your ships to defend Gallente sovereignty and I admire you for that.

That being said I look forward to fighting at your side. Like you I have ships pre-positioned in the area and I await mobilization to active service in the Federal Navy. Please put aside your differences with me and know that even though I had an unpleasant time at your beach, (I still have nightmares about it), defense of the Federation is a higher priority.

Oh and just an FYI, if you think for a second that I would warp alone into the middle of Caldari space, in an armed Gallente battlecruiser, fly between two opposing Caldari fleets of capitals engaged in 'taking care of Caldari business' and 'hope to bag a few'... then surely you jest! Another humorist!

As fleeting and entertaining as that thought might be I am of course not a fool. Wars and revolutions are not things one does alone.

Insanity is not hubris, not pride; it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate - confusion between him who worships and that which is worshipped. Man has not eaten God; God has eaten man.

-- PKD
Anslo
Scope Works
#42 - 2013-06-12 14:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
You are way too convoluted and long winded. Whatever...either way, hope this works out and that we won't be needed.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-06-12 14:39:31 UTC
Although the Provists' stated aim is to make for Luminaire, they are in theory contained by CalNav and by the capsuleers who have sided with the CEP (i.e.: nearly all of us).

I don't know the specific composition of the purloined ships and the majority being subcaps will be stuck having to go through the gate network, and that I think we can realistically contain. But black ops and capitals can move in unpredictable ways.

If they make it as far as the border there will already have been a mission failure on our end, and the most likely scenario for that would be if a third party gave them a cyno out. As well as watching Algogille, I'd recommend that Federation loyalists should keep an eye on Seyllin. It's a route we've used to get stuff from the State to Luminaire before under more peaceful circumstances. The Dragonaurs could also go through Black Rise or Metropolis, but the former is a much longer voyage and the latter would be suicidally risky.

In either event, I hope I speak for all Caldari pilots in thanking our Federal counterparts for respecting our wishes here. Duuma Rikaato.

-Hakatain

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anslo
Scope Works
#44 - 2013-06-12 14:43:44 UTC
It's what the other gloriously bearded bastard would wanna see. It's crazy how much you learn talking to the other side without the guns.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-06-12 14:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Suorsa
The sentiment and content of the message is a pleasant surprise, of course. Especially given the vocal adherence to it's meaning voiced by participants in this discussion. However, experience dictates I remain skeptical as to whether the Federation and it's supporters will heed the original message. I guess we'll see soon enough.
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#46 - 2013-06-12 15:07:59 UTC
Having gone through the various statements made by some both in this discussion and the on regarding the situation at the space station (I am terrible with remembering names), and I see a rather disturbing pattern emerging from within the ranks of the Federation: bringing up the past as a means to justify a lack of respect for and empathy with the Caldari State.

Yes, it is important that we do not forget what happened, but are we not also supposed to forgive? I see cries of the injustices committed against the Federation by the Caldari, yet we are just as guilty of the same thing. The hatred, or simple lack of empathy and respect towards our neighbors sounds very much like what I would expect to hear from the provosts and their ilk.

We Gallente have a right to be proud, but do not let this pride blind us. Claiming that we were the ones who suffered and paid the price for the Gallente-Caldari wars is simple ignorance. We did suffer yes, but so to did our enemy. For a federation that prides itself on liberty and freedom, our history seems to be replete with incidences where we have chosen to ignore these ideals that we so proudly proclaim to all.

I understand that we are passionate people, but there are times when we must cool our passions and think carefully. Being prepared is one thing, but calling for the blood of our 'enemies' is something else entirely. We are at a tipping point here and we can must proceed with caution.

This is the last thing I hope to say on this matter as I find most of the rhetoric tiresome and pointless. We, myself included, need to get off of our soapboxes.

One last thing of note, in all of this "let's prepare for an invasion", has anyone thought about the need to prepare a relief effort if this incident extends beyond the station? I plan on having the Winter Rose on station if Fed space is invaded, but I am also going to be moving the Bastille, an Ithron Mark-V hauler should there be a call for supplies, aid, or other humanitarian efforts that might be required.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-06-12 17:31:31 UTC
The history of the Federation is a history in trying to find an acceptable line to walk between laissez faire and interventionist politics. In a sense, the current relations between the State and the Federation are a direct result of the early, optimistic policies of "uplifting". Because of this, relations between the Federation and the State occupy a fundamentally different field than other international relations. This is something that's going to have to be addressed on a very conscious level before there can be progress on Federation-State relations.

I've lived in the State for almost a decade. While I don't claim to really understand the Caldari mindset, I do know enough to understand that they are a people who harden under pressure. That's worth considering, for anyone who hopes to have any sort of profitable dealings with them.

Saissore is right about things being at a tipping point: The Federation and the State have existed in a state of CONCORD-mediated limited war for several years, and this war is currently not going well for the State. A State-backed invasion of Luminaire at this point would be evidence that the State has withdrawn from the CONCORD limitations, opening up the State to retaliatory attacks by Federation forces. The State recognized a century ago that it was better to lose a homeworld while keeping a nation. I cannot believe that the State today would not come to the same decision. Should Heth attempt to cross the border, I do not think he would do so with State support.

In any case, I cannot agree more with Ixiris and the other Federals in urging the Federation to stay out of this affair.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#48 - 2013-06-12 19:00:08 UTC
That was very insightful, Shintoko, thank you.
Jarac Raasen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-06-12 19:35:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarac Raasen
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Having gone through the various statements made by some both in this discussion and the on regarding the situation at the space station (I am terrible with remembering names), and I see a rather disturbing pattern emerging from within the ranks of the Federation: bringing up the past as a means to justify a lack of respect for and empathy with the Caldari State.

Yes, it is important that we do not forget what happened, but are we not also supposed to forgive? I see cries of the injustices committed against the Federation by the Caldari, yet we are just as guilty of the same thing. The hatred, or simple lack of empathy and respect towards our neighbors sounds very much like what I would expect to hear from the provosts and their ilk.

We Gallente have a right to be proud, but do not let this pride blind us. Claiming that we were the ones who suffered and paid the price for the Gallente-Caldari wars is simple ignorance. We did suffer yes, but so to did our enemy. For a federation that prides itself on liberty and freedom, our history seems to be replete with incidences where we have chosen to ignore these ideals that we so proudly proclaim to all.

I understand that we are passionate people, but there are times when we must cool our passions and think carefully. Being prepared is one thing, but calling for the blood of our 'enemies' is something else entirely. We are at a tipping point here and we can must proceed with caution.

This is the last thing I hope to say on this matter as I find most of the rhetoric tiresome and pointless. We, myself included, need to get off of our soapboxes.

One last thing of note, in all of this "let's prepare for an invasion", has anyone thought about the need to prepare a relief effort if this incident extends beyond the station? I plan on having the Winter Rose on station if Fed space is invaded, but I am also going to be moving the Bastille, an Ithron Mark-V hauler should there be a call for supplies, aid, or other humanitarian efforts that might be required.


As a student of history myself, I say well said. We should be proud of our Federation. We should revel in our ideals. But do not let passion become arrogance, for that has been the downfall of many. You only have to look to Null-Sec to see what happens when pride and arrogance consumes a people: they rise, and they fall very far and very hard.

We should not want war with the State. What happened happened, and the only thing to do is to reconcile and move forward. If my cousins of Gallente are to be the true champions of liberty and justice, we must stay our intervention. Let the State do its will in its own borders. Remain vigilant, but not hot-headed and blood thirsty. It is not the way of the Federation. Learn from our past, and don't repeat it.
Anslo
Scope Works
#50 - 2013-06-12 23:28:46 UTC
I'll be in orbit around the Kassigainen Gate in Algogille for the next few days until the situation's resolved. Anyone else is welcome to join in monitoring our side.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#51 - 2013-06-14 09:48:28 UTC
To those that say that Federation Empyreans should withdraw to Federation space, and let the Caldari State and Caldari Empyreans handle this, I say: "One does not try to stop an avalanche at the bottom of the mountain, and expect to make a difference".

Executioner Heth has levelled a threat against the security of the Federation and against the free peoples of Caldari Prime / Luminaire VII. One can say many things about the man, but not that his threats hold no weight.

He should be neutralised and/or apprehended as soon as possible, before he becomes responsible for the death of countless more innocents, Gallente AND Caldari. And if the earliest place we can stop him happens to be at the undock of the Haatomo VII Moon 3 Caldari Constructions Warehouse he's hiding in, that is where I'll be; Not in Algogille, patiently hoping that others solve our problem for us.

As for the mind-set that some might have, in which a Federation presence in the system implies a taint on the purity of the actions of the CEP (as if they were acting at the behest of the Federation Senate): I do not think they constitute a valid reason for me to withdraw for two reasons:
  • I am not beholden to the reputation of the CEP; I am beholden to the security of the Federation.
  • Those that hold such opinions will not change them just because there is no Federation presence in-system. Their deluded minds appear set in this warped reasoning (and I've talked at length with some of them on the subject in the past few days).

That said, I recognise that the CEP (and through them, the Caldari Navy) appears to have every intention of not letting Heth commit another act of war, and will thus cooperate with them as much as possible, insofar that their instructions do not conflict with the safeguarding of the Federation and the free peoples of Caldari Prime / Luminaire VII.

If we cannot stand shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy, how can we ever aspire to end this war once and for all?

Until all are free...
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-06-14 10:26:03 UTC
Oh, please, do send some gallentean scum to Caldari space to try to stop our glorious Executor and State war machine.

We will send them back in plastic bags.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-06-14 10:32:01 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Oh, please, do send some gallentean scum to Caldari space to try to stop our glorious Executor and State war machine.

We will send them back in plastic bags.

Really? The "Executor" (although according to the CEP that title is now "former Executor") and the State war machine aren't on good terms right now - the CEP is demanding his surrender, and he's walled himself up inside a station, unable to get out. And what's this "we?" Reports from Haatomo indicate that every time you get enough guns pointed at you, you dock up. I heard your fellow stooge, TomHorn, is playing craven docking games with the CEP guard forces.

Typical Kim, typical TomHorn, typical Provists. You're just honourless cowards hiding behind bluster.

I'd tell you to quit while you're ahead, but you aren't.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#54 - 2013-06-14 10:34:24 UTC
Send the Federation fanatic Ixiris. We would love you to send him.

Twisted
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-06-14 10:38:11 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Send the Federation fanatic Ixiris. We would love you to send him.

Twisted

It's pretty amusing that you call me a "fanatic" when you're the one propping up a failed dictatorship and baying for blood.

I guess they don't teach the concepts of irony and hypocricy at Provist school. Along with honour, dignity, humility, decency, tactics, strategy, module fitting strategies, expectation management, grammar, conversational linguistics, how to dress yourself in the morning...

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-06-14 10:41:06 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Oh, please, do send some gallentean scum to Caldari space to try to stop our glorious Executor and State war machine.

We will send them back in plastic bags.

Really? The "Executor" (although according to the CEP that title is now "former Executor") and the State war machine aren't on good terms right now - the CEP is demanding his surrender, and he's walled himself up inside a station, unable to get out. And what's this "we?" Reports from Haatomo indicate that every time you get enough guns pointed at you, you dock up. I heard your fellow stooge, TomHorn, is playing craven docking games with the CEP guard forces.

Typical Kim, typical TomHorn, typical Provists. You're just honourless cowards hiding behind bluster.

I'd tell you to quit while you're ahead, but you aren't.


I see you are clueless and ignorant as ever, poor gallentean child.
I can sit outside station as much as I want, and they can point as many guns at me, as they want. I'd surely kill some anti-provist scum, that would dare to aggress on me near the station. But they don't. Because State military and CONCORD. Well, maybe YOU would like to try? It would be... amusing. I would even try to kill you before police will splatter your empty brains to station walls.

Meanwhile I will sit in cozy and warm station, drinking tea with cookies, waiting for real operation against REAL gallente, who can actually shoot back instead of spewing deluded nonsense on forums.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#57 - 2013-06-14 10:41:32 UTC
Quote:
Really? The "Executor" (although according to the CEP that title is now "former Executor") and the State war machine aren't on good terms right now - the CEP is demanding his surrender, and he's walled himself up inside a station, unable to get out. And what's this "we?" Reports from Haatomo indicate that every time you get enough guns pointed at you, you dock up. I heard your fellow stooge, TomHorn, is playing craven docking games with the CEP guard forces.

Typical Kim, typical TomHorn, typical Provists. You're just honourless cowards hiding behind bluster.

I'd tell you to quit while you're ahead, but you aren't.


The CEP have lost all legitimacy to rule the State after declaring war on the Executor and the Provists. We will defeat them in battle where ever Heth decides to make his stand. Afterwards the State will have new leader. Meritocracy of the CEP will be abolished.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-06-14 10:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Restoring the New Meritocracy was originally Heth's idea. It was literally the founding principle of the CPD.

The fact that they seem hel-bent on tearing it down now that it's working against them just reveals them for the brain-dead hypocrites they are.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
#59 - 2013-06-14 10:55:14 UTC
Verin, as per your request I have moved to Luminaire for the time being.
The offer of aid remains though. If my few torps will be of use, you know how to contact me.

-Tertianus Rethelior ('Rok)

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-06-14 10:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Diana Kim wrote:
I see you are clueless and ignorant as ever, poor gallentean child.

Empty, demonstrably false invective will get you nowhere.

Diana Kim wrote:
I'd surely kill some anti-provist scum, that would dare to aggress on me near the station. But they don't. Because State military and CONCORD. Well, maybe YOU would like to try? It would be... amusing. I would even try to kill you before police will splatter your empty brains to station walls.

Meanwhile I will sit in cozy and warm station, drinking tea with cookies, waiting for real operation against REAL gallente, who can actually shoot back instead of spewing deluded nonsense on forums.

Every excuse you've ever had to fight me, you've run away. All this bluster about "real Gallente" and yet you've never had the nerve to face me in one-to-one combat.

Then again, I heard some guy off his meds clipped your wings so bad you had to go crying to Verin for bodyguards. Guess you're not as good at fighting as you think you are.

TomHorn wrote:
The CEP have lost all legitimacy to rule the State after declaring war on the Executor and the Provists. We will defeat them in battle where ever Heth decides to make his stand. Afterwards the State will have new leader. Meritocracy of the CEP will be abolished.

And how do you think that's going to happen? The Caldari Navy's sided with the CEP. The corporations have sided with the CEP. The people have sided with the CEP. At this point you are literally fighting the State. The core of the Provist forces are currently holed up in one station with access to round about a hundred ships. The Caldari Navy detachment for that constellation alone has thousands. You and Kim-hnolku are two of only three independent capsuleers in the entire cluster who've openly declared for Heth. Independent capsuleer forces pledging loyalty to the CEP on the field at Haatomo four days ago outnumbered you almost fifteen to one.

If you do somehow manage to batter past a CEP blockade and invade Federal space, the absolute best you can hope for is the CEP saying "we won't send Caldari Navy ships into Federation space," meaning you'll "only" be fighting Tripwire and independent capsuleers loyal to the Federation and the CEP - and incidentally, Tripwire isn't limited to a budget of "about a hundred ships." They've got tens of thousands.

You're both completely delusional.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.