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Situation in Haatomo

Author
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-06-13 08:19:09 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Actually...since much of Caldari Prime is under Caldari jurisdiction, he's actually advocating an invasion of the Caldari State.

Granted.

To perform such an invasion, he would also need to invade the Federation to do it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#142 - 2013-06-13 08:43:37 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Counterwise, CEP is supposed to do what is best for each of corporations, that enter the State.


Which, if you were to consider it, technically makes the State more of a Confederation than anything else. Or perhaps a Commonwealth? Maybe even a little of both, hmm?

Diana Kim wrote:
The problem is, that after the State becomes unified, CEP automatically loses all powers. And now they cling to their remaining power as hard as they can, because it is slipping through their fingers.


Interesting, but there is a problem: You are not us.

Even the great Amarr Empire has it's limits. There is a reason that Khanid Kingdom and the Ammatar Mandate continue to exist as allies of the Empire rather than being absorbed directly into it, for even a monarch as powerful & wise at The Empress can only rule over so many star systems before it becomes too much of a confusing boondoggle to deal with. This is where vassals and alliances come into play, because only by delegating authority - even to the point to technical autonomy - can the Empire truly hope to expand.

This is also why my family has always endorsed the idea that the Reclaiming should be done peacefully through missionary work rather than through direct conquest. And as much as I would naturally like to see all of those souls residing within the Caldari State to someday join us in our Faith, I most certainly would never wish to see them relinquish one iota of their autonomy or the rest of their way of life in any way (and I am not alone in this belief). It is within our differences that we learn from each other, and the structure of the CEP intrigues me greatly; for I see it as a model for what the Empire may become, or at least how it will operate, some day in the future... if on a smaller scale.

I envision a future New Eden with just as many governments as we see today, and perhaps more. Naturally I see them as Reclaimed brothers & sisters of the Faith and allied appropriately. Yet I still see them as still operating independently of each other, for again there is only so much territory any one nation can hope to encompass before simply collapsing under the weight of it's own bureaucracy.

All this being said, I, for one, certainly do not enjoy the idea of an autocratic leader ruling arbitrarily over the entirely of the Caldari State. Their diffuse government of multiple corporations linked together by common interests (and economics) is the very model that I believe will prove itself most successful in the long run for New Eden, as well as the one that we, ourselves, may someday adapt in a slightly different manner (replace "common financial goals" with "singular Faith in God" and you will see what I mean).

The first of these, as you would envision, "Megacorps" being the Amarr Empire, and then including the Khanid Kingdom, the Ammatar Mandate, and then anyone else who wishes to join us in God's Good Grace.

In light of all this, I have no choice but to perceive Mr.Heth as an obstacle in the continued evolution of both of our great nations. I can only see his actions as a step backward, not forward. Now to his credit he did do many good things on rise to power, and the elimination of corruption is always a noble goal that we should all aspire to. However, his actions after coming to power can be proven to have caused nothing but a great deal of needless deaths, the waste of vast resources and the effective burning of untold amounts of ISK for what has proven to be zero gain.

Was it really worth losing so much just to say that you held your own Leviathan over Caldari Prime for a little while? Could there have been another way? Could you not have simply brokered a deal to try to buy back the planet from the Federation? Could not the citizens there simply used the Federation's own laws to vote themselves back into the State (Yes, I know my history, and perhaps the Federation would have indeed shown hypocrisy in refusing to acknowledge such a vote, but then you would have demoralized the faith of many Federation citizens in their own system of government - which would have been quite a victory in itself, had it played out that way). Could diplomacy not wait any longer?

Mr.Heth has shown a great deal of impatience, and I believe that has been and will continue to be the source of his downfall. Those who act without thinking cause situations such as the Colelie Incident, and to be perfectly honest I am only grateful that Mr.Heth has not caused such a similar incident himself so far.

Politically speaking, of course, the State would be far better adopting a purely defensive stance when dealing with the Federation. As I had said previously, with their pretense of "cultural enlightenment" and liberalism it automatically becomes a serious loss of face for any Federation politician that goes on the offensive without due cause. While I am certain that a certain Mr.Blaque is perfectly capable of fabricating "due cause" at will, men like him fall in same category as Mr.Heth - and likewise, I believe his time is short as well. The point being, however, is that if you seek to truly defeat the Federation then you must expose the hollowness of their ideology to their own people and then simply sit back and let them do the work for you. It is the fatal weakness of democracy, after all - being at the complete mercy of the masses and all that. To that end, again, a more peaceful, defensive posture would ultimate serve the State far better than any sort of war of aggression.

And leave being a monarchy to those with more experience, my dear. Blink
Amann Karris
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-06-13 08:51:54 UTC
Beware the righteous who seek truth in spirit alone;
The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt;
Thus fools go forth to spread false word,
Great misery follows those who heed what only the weak have heard.


Diana Kim wrote:
This is a question of power and authority, that will show what path the State will continue its way: will it be a road to modernization, unification, real meritocracy and victory over Gallente Federation, or it will be descent back to petty warring corporations, tearing Caldari property between separated entities, and the war will continue for unknown amount of time, because degenerated State won't be able to gather enough force to deal with Federation once and forever.

I think the fact that security forces from all eight megas are currently working together to protect Caldari citizens speaks volumes as to what kind of future the Caldari have.

To his credit, Heth gave the Caldari people hope. Sadly, he played upon the fears of the people in order to bring that hope. Now, as they work together against Heth, his own demons - demons that led to a war that rages across all the Empires - have left him with few allies.

I see nothing but hope for a future where a man like Tibus Heth will never again hold sway over the masses. Think about it, Diana. You are giving in to your own demons, and elevating this man above the collective wishes of the State. Instead of fighting for your people, you are waiting to defend a man who has proven time and again his resourcefulness.

You are not only on the wrong side of this conflict, but you are allowing your fear to dictate your actions.

I admire your dedication. It is a source of strength for you. It is what gives you courage.Your hope for your people is equally admirable.

Perhaps it is time to show faith in the State you hold so dear.

Run and you shall be crushed.
Stand and you shall fall.
Kneel and you shall be saved.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2013-06-13 17:11:34 UTC
Such a shame that the most powerful man in the State is now hiding in a closet on just your average every day station.

Tibus Heth, stop drawing this out, it's over. Come out of the closet.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-06-13 17:20:57 UTC
Barely three hundred years ago, the idea of even one space station, let alone one capable of supporting a population in the hundreds of thousands, was pure fiction.

Nowadays we can comfortably describe such a thing as "average" or "everyday". I called it a "backwater" not too long ago (my apologies to anybody who calls Haatomo home, of course).

No observation, I just find it amusing that we can classify a city-sized orbital jammed full of Planck field generators and capable of warding off a coronal mass ejection with contemptuous ease as "ordinary"

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2013-06-13 17:53:07 UTC
I'm a purveyor and consumer of fine holoreels. I was thinking of writing scripts and commissioning two new ones:

The first: 'Yolana Does Luminaire'
The sequel: 'Hollerin Heth in Haatomo'

Currently accepting auditions.

Insanity is not hubris, not pride; it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate - confusion between him who worships and that which is worshipped. Man has not eaten God; God has eaten man.

-- PKD

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2013-06-13 18:06:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Stitcher wrote:
Barely three hundred years ago, the idea of even one space station, let alone one capable of supporting a population in the hundreds of thousands, was pure fiction.

Nowadays we can comfortably describe such a thing as "average" or "everyday". I called it a "backwater" not too long ago (my apologies to anybody who calls Haatomo home, of course).

No observation, I just find it amusing that we can classify a city-sized orbital jammed full of Planck field generators and capable of warding off a coronal mass ejection with contemptuous ease as "ordinary"



All this technology and progress, and men like Tibus Heth want to use it to destroy rather than create.

Then again we all do, but we all have our own reasons.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#148 - 2013-06-13 18:54:46 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
BloodBird wrote:


I want this war to end, but before that I want two more things.



You know, what shall be done to end this war.

Federation must be destroyed.


I didn't know they made jackboots in child-sized.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-06-14 08:40:19 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:

All this being said, I, for one, certainly do not enjoy the idea of an autocratic leader ruling arbitrarily over the entirely of the Caldari State. Their diffuse government of multiple corporations linked together by common interests (and economics) is the very model that I believe will prove itself most successful in the long run for New Eden, as well as the one that we, ourselves, may someday adapt in a slightly different manner (replace "common financial goals" with "singular Faith in God" and you will see what I mean).

We need a single autocratic leader just to consolidate the State power and deal with the Federation once and forever. After the Federation will be gone, diffuse government will be better indeed.

Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:

Was it really worth losing so much just to say that you held your own Leviathan over Caldari Prime for a little while? Could there have been another way? Could you not have simply brokered a deal to try to buy back the planet from the Federation? Could not the citizens there simply used the Federation's own laws to vote themselves back into the State (Yes, I know my history, and perhaps the Federation would have indeed shown hypocrisy in refusing to acknowledge such a vote, but then you would have demoralized the faith of many Federation citizens in their own system of government - which would have been quite a victory in itself, had it played out that way). Could diplomacy not wait any longer?

Diplomacy tried to solve it for about a hundred of years. Didn't work.

Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:

Politically speaking, of course, the State would be far better adopting a purely defensive stance when dealing with the Federation. As I had said previously, with their pretense of "cultural enlightenment" and liberalism it automatically becomes a serious loss of face for any Federation politician that goes on the offensive without due cause. While I am certain that a certain Mr.Blaque is perfectly capable of fabricating "due cause" at will, men like him fall in same category as Mr.Heth - and likewise, I believe his time is short as well. The point being, however, is that if you seek to truly defeat the Federation then you must expose the hollowness of their ideology to their own people and then simply sit back and let them do the work for you. It is the fatal weakness of democracy, after all - being at the complete mercy of the masses and all that. To that end, again, a more peaceful, defensive posture would ultimate serve the State far better than any sort of war of aggression.

I don't think it is possible to win against them in their own game. But it is possible to win against them in our game: game of power, competitions, ruthlessness and combat.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2013-06-14 08:56:09 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
We need a single autocratic leader just to consolidate the State power and deal with the Federation once and forever. After the Federation will be gone, diffuse government will be better indeed.


Diana Kim wrote:
I don't think it is possible to win against them in their own game. But it is possible to win against them in our game: game of power, competitions, ruthlessness and combat.

So what you've essentially given Heth is an excuse to stay in power forever, because it would be literally impossible for Heth to "get rid" of the Federation even if he had the unquestioning loyalty of every State citizen. Given that he's lost the loyalty of everyone but the Provists and the Templis Dragonaurs, what madness possesses you to believe that he's capable of it now?

Unless, of course, you're a bitter troll who knows that what you're saying is horseshit, and you're just promoting the murder of trillions to upset people?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-06-14 09:09:31 UTC
Amann Karris wrote:

I think the fact that security forces from all eight megas are currently working together to protect Caldari citizens speaks volumes as to what kind of future the Caldari have.

To his credit, Heth gave the Caldari people hope. Sadly, he played upon the fears of the people in order to bring that hope. Now, as they work together against Heth, his own demons - demons that led to a war that rages across all the Empires - have left him with few allies.

I haven't seen here much of 'security forces of all eight megas' here. The situation is pretty stable and we are preparing ourselves for attack on the Federation.

Amann Karris wrote:

I see nothing but hope for a future where a man like Tibus Heth will never again hold sway over the masses. Think about it, Diana. You are giving in to your own demons, and elevating this man above the collective wishes of the State. Instead of fighting for your people, you are waiting to defend a man who has proven time and again his resourcefulness.

This man fight for all our peoples. He raised Caldari workers from bottom of the pit and gave them everything a Caldari citizen must have. He made us wear name Caldari with pride. I am fighting for my people. And I am fighting against gallentean filth, that crawls in even into our State.

Amann Karris wrote:

You are not only on the wrong side of this conflict, but you are allowing your fear to dictate your actions.

You are wrong with this one. Which side of conflict I am on, is for our children to decide. But I do not allow fear to dictate my actions. Well, what is the worst thing can happen? We all will join ancestors? This would only mean that I fulfill my duty for the State. I will accept it with honor and as a well deserved retirement, so I will finally find my own little piece of peace.

Amann Karris wrote:

I admire your dedication. It is a source of strength for you. It is what gives you courage.Your hope for your people is equally admirable.

Perhaps it is time to show faith in the State you hold so dear.

I do believe in the State, Lord Karris. I believe we will be strong enough to put down the Federation, so it won't raise ever again.

Amann Karris wrote:

Run and you shall be crushed.
Stand and you shall fall.
Kneel and you shall be saved.

Lord Karris, have you ever thought, why of all four major nations: Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar, there are only Caldari who weren't engaged in slavery relations? I think we should talk about it later.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-06-14 09:37:50 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Amann Karris wrote:

Run and you shall be crushed.
Stand and you shall fall.
Kneel and you shall be saved.

Lord Karris, have you ever thought, why of all four major nations: Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar, there are only Caldari who weren't engaged in slavery relations? I think we should talk about it later.

Wow.

Even I didn't think you'd sink this low.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#153 - 2013-06-14 11:19:44 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Lord Karris, have you ever thought, why of all four major nations: Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar, there are only Caldari who weren't engaged in slavery relations? I think we should talk about it later.


I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here Diana. Surely you aren't suggesting that the Caldari should enslave the Gallente? Perhaps you could clarify?

Fly Caldari!

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-06-14 11:49:33 UTC
Brandi Wiseman wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Lord Karris, have you ever thought, why of all four major nations: Amarr, Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar, there are only Caldari who weren't engaged in slavery relations? I think we should talk about it later.


I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here Diana. Surely you aren't suggesting that the Caldari should enslave the Gallente? Perhaps you could clarify?

No, of course not. Slavery is prohibited by law now. I was talking about development through history.
Besides, who would want such weak and useless slaves as gallente? Blood raiders maybe for their rituals?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Brandi Wiseman
Den Sorte Loge
#155 - 2013-06-14 11:57:40 UTC
Ah my apologies I didn't pick that up. Not quite sure why mumbo jumbo rituals might be of benefit, but ethical issues aside, I agree with you that slavery has never been an effective means of ensuring efficient production. They lack the necessary motivation.

Fly Caldari!

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-06-14 12:01:21 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Besides, who would want such weak and useless slaves as gallente?

Would that be the same Gallente who achieved manned spaceflight before the Caldari were out of the industrial age and your (or my, for that matter) people had abandoned medieval feudalism, co-developed the warp drive, invented interstellar communication and engineered a gigantic Federation spanning thousands of worlds across six regions of space? Would that be the Gallente that developed a military capable of seriously intimidating the Amarr Empire, despite not having their religious fervor or the ingrained militaristic culture of the Caldari? Would that be the Gallente you've tried every day of your life as a capsuleer to eradicate but never even managed to scratch, let alone present a serious threat to?

Ask any tactician, Caldari or otherwise, and they'll tell you - underestimating your enemy is the fastest possible path to defeat.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-06-14 12:07:42 UTC
Brandi Wiseman wrote:
Ah my apologies I didn't pick that up. Not quite sure why mumbo jumbo rituals might be of benefit, but ethical issues aside, I agree with you that slavery has never been an effective means of ensuring efficient production. They lack the necessary motivation.

If you would want to talk about it, feel free to be my guest. I just don't want to discuss it here with all these ugly gallenteans crawling around.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-06-14 12:10:19 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
If you would want to talk about it, feel free to be my guest. I just don't want to discuss it here with all these ugly gallenteans crawling around.

Don't spew bullshit on the IGS if you aren't willing to be called out on it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Amann Karris
Doomheim
#159 - 2013-06-14 15:33:24 UTC
Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure.

Diana Kim,

Let me put it another way.

You have spoken of meritocracy. You speak of Heth leading the charge against the Gallente. Let us look at the facts here.

Kaalakiota, under Heth's control, became insolvent. He attempted to gain control of the other mega corporations by nationalizing them. Another leader in recent history attempted something similar, and I don't think I need to tell you which Empire this leader was part of. Needless to say, he was replaced. Why should anything less happen here?

I'm sure others can point to more specific cases of Heth's incompetence and lack of leadership. The point is this; Heth is unfit to lead the State. He has lost the confidence and respect of the people. He has effectively removed himself from his role as Executor.

The tragic irony, Diana Kim, is that it is not Gallente decadence that is the greatest threat to the Caldari. It is the darkness that exists in us all, and exemplified by Heth's xenophobic and ignorant actions. It is a threat to all of us, regardless of who we are and where we come from.

Funny, isn't it, that after all of your defense, it all came down to you bringing up slavery. "At least we're not slavers," in other words, non? I think I know enough about you to know I won't waste any more words on you. Your xenophobia and ignorance is best used as an example of what we all should avoid.

In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#160 - 2013-06-14 15:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aidan Brooder
Quote:
Run and you shall be crushed.
Stand and you shall fall.
Kneel and you shall be saved.


Obviously - no matter what the situation - these are in historic context exactly the wrong words you could throw at any Caldari.
I don't even have to support Tibus Heth to feel my blood boil at such words. I don't support his current course of action at all.

But: If we hadn't 'run' initially, we would now be second class citizens in the Federation, our believes crushed, our children going to Gallente schools to learn how to press a vote button every other year or so and how to wear transparent clothes so they can feel 'free'! You spit on such great names as Admiral Tovil-Toba with your wording!

*takes a deep breath*

You should truly take a course or two in diplomacy. My stand on the whole topic should be well known by now.

But do never doubt that all Caldari stand united if some outsider tries to crush us, that we will fall, just to stand up again and we'll never kneel!

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x