These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

"dont triage/rat/pvp in thannies; get an archon"
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2013-06-13 04:02:49 UTC
I was under the impression carriers were more or less welp logi for supers. is that correct

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-06-13 04:06:40 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I was under the impression carriers were more or less welp logi for supers. is that correct


archon is a giant logi yes, chimera is shield version and nid/thanny kind of in limbo

Art of Explosions
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2013-06-13 04:14:32 UTC
I thought Nyxes are quite popular. if the differences between Aeons and Nyxes are a similar situation, why are Nyx owners so proud when Thannys don't get much love

is it because the damage bonus actually means something with 20 fighter bombers? (I'm finding 8k dps/80m ehp for aeon vs 10kdps/35m ehp for Nyx)

so archons and nyxes?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-06-13 04:28:35 UTC
thing is supers are not triage ships they are fighter bomber platforms

Art of Explosions
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-06-13 04:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
k. seems simple now.

why not keep carrier bonuses in line with logistics, instead of a T2 resist for archons and chimeras?

(and why did all T2 resists get sacked with the archon? is the archon an unofficial T2 boat?)

archon was mentioned in Fozzie's T2 resist change explanation. ...at the end. not suspicious

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Grandma Squirel
#26 - 2013-06-13 05:10:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I thought Nyxes are quite popular. if the differences between Aeons and Nyxes are a similar situation, why are Nyx owners so proud when Thannys don't get much love

is it because the damage bonus actually means something with 20 fighter bombers? (I'm finding 8k dps/80m ehp for aeon vs 10kdps/35m ehp for Nyx)

so archons and nyxes?


Its because the bonus on the thanny doesn't work with how they are actually used. The Thanatos bonus applies only to fighters, and not drones. Fighters are generally inferior to drones in most situations where carriers are actually used. Sentry drones are competitive when it comes to missions, and in pvp, sentry drones are the standard for carrier dps.

When it comes to super caps, you are only using fighters/fighter bombers, so the Nyx damage bonus is beneficial as the ship is actually used. There is therefor a plausible argument that the Nyx is superior to the Aeon, even if conventional wisdom still favors the Aeon. Combined with the fact that the Nyx is pretty much the best looking ship in the game, being an arguably good choice is enough for players to flock to it.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-06-13 05:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
ok so I found out what the connection between resist bonuses and T2 is. Roll

my next question is why do two races get resist bonused carriers, when there is only one ship per race in the class.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime I appreciate any comments. ty

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Xander Det89
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#28 - 2013-06-13 14:29:19 UTC
Well the two resist bonus carriers are on the shield specialist and armour specialist races, obv gallente are armour specialist too but I guess they didn't want to pass up the opportunity for a fighter spec carrier. The Nid gets a pure rep bonus, it can fit both like the Thanny and gets rep amount bonus to both, it just lacks the EHP... but technically it's the best repper I guess, just squishier than the archon/chimera in either shield or armour setup and can't cap chain as effectively when out of triage. But tbh, across the board CCP are gonna have to come with a new idea for balancing the field between resist bonus ships and well... the rest that hopefully doesn't involve just giving more ships resist bonuses. I'm still gonna fly Matari caps anyway, and pray for something good when caps get a full revamp.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-06-13 16:33:39 UTC
They need to rebalance carriers:

Archon: stays as is
Chimera: Stays the same

Nid: Bonus applies to remote AND local reps - ie its got a good active tank, it can heal other ships better, but the lack of a resist bonus makes it not fare as well when reps are incoming

Thanny: 5% bonus to Fighter AND DRONE damage AND Hitpoints/speed/tracking/optimal per level

Then I think the carriers would be better balanced.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-06-13 16:36:27 UTC
or they could just let drone skills affect fighters ;D

Art of Explosions
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#31 - 2013-06-13 16:58:58 UTC
on a side note dont you wish fighters got a boost?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Crrrazy Ivan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-06-13 17:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Crrrazy Ivan
MeBiatch wrote:
on a side note dont you wish fighters got a boost?


Nope. The current Fighter mechanics are useless for most, if not all engagements. They're slow, expensive, take up a lot of space in the drone bay and don't have the insta-applied DPS when compared to Sentries. The current +5% Fighter DPS per level bonus could be replaced by a universal +3% Drone DPS per level which could also apply to Fighters. On the other hand, the Thanatos' bonuses also affect the Nyx and therefore, any "change" that might reduce a Nyx's DPS is going to annoy pretty much all the pilots considering the Nyx can only use Fighters and Bombers.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-06-13 17:24:37 UTC
Well, fighters are useless now... but they are frigate size, much more expensive than frigates.... I'd like to see them have the range, DPS, and tracking of frigates.
Mini fighter: basically give it stats as if it was a frigate fitted with the smallest sized autos, the electron blasters for gallente, gatling pulse for amarr, and gatling rail or rocket launchers for caldari.
If each fighter did 100 DPS, combined, they'd be a beast in small scale engagements - 2000 DPS that can actually be applied to everything from BSs down to frigates

Also I'd add the equivalent of combat utility drones -fighters that pack a full strength T1m0 web/scram/disruptor/all ewar and cap warfare variants, except ECM

Of course, with such versatility, I'd want to make two separate variants: a fighter carrier (no remote rep/energy transfer bonuses, n), and a logi carrier (No +1 fighter per level, perhaps no fighters at all).
Big fleets: dreads + logi carriers would be the order of the day, maybe with a few fighter carriers for some flexibility
"Small" gangs: you'd probably want a fighter carrier, and all the versatility it provides with high DPS and high effective tracking, plus the combat utility fighters that allow you to effective switch modules by switching deployed fighters (although you can already switch modules mid fight using the fitting services of carriers)
Xander Det89
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#34 - 2013-06-13 18:22:26 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Well, fighters are useless now... but they are frigate size, much more expensive than frigates.... I'd like to see them have the range, DPS, and tracking of frigates.
Mini fighter: basically give it stats as if it was a frigate fitted with the smallest sized autos, the electron blasters for gallente, gatling pulse for amarr, and gatling rail or rocket launchers for caldari.
If each fighter did 100 DPS, combined, they'd be a beast in small scale engagements - 2000 DPS that can actually be applied to everything from BSs down to frigates

Also I'd add the equivalent of combat utility drones -fighters that pack a full strength T1m0 web/scram/disruptor/all ewar and cap warfare variants, except ECM

Of course, with such versatility, I'd want to make two separate variants: a fighter carrier (no remote rep/energy transfer bonuses, n), and a logi carrier (No +1 fighter per level, perhaps no fighters at all).
Big fleets: dreads + logi carriers would be the order of the day, maybe with a few fighter carriers for some flexibility
"Small" gangs: you'd probably want a fighter carrier, and all the versatility it provides with high DPS and high effective tracking, plus the combat utility fighters that allow you to effective switch modules by switching deployed fighters (although you can already switch modules mid fight using the fitting services of carriers)


Would be a bit strong potentially, as that would basicly mean that a carrier packs between 5 and 15 frigates... which would allow carriers to repel small gangs solo pretty easily. Not that it's impossible already in the right setup, but generally shouldn't be something carriers are easily capable of.
Rain6636
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2013-06-14 01:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6636
how long has this been going on?

I apologize; I've never looked beyond battleships. or high sec, really

#1 Fan of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Grandma Squirel
#36 - 2013-06-14 03:10:48 UTC
Rain6636 wrote:
how long has this been going on?

I apologize; I've never looked beyond battleships. or high sec, really

For PvE, the introduction of the drone damage amplifier is what really did it. Without them, the extra low slots of an archon don't help you rat, and in fact the extra mids on the thanny for painters/sebos matter. With drone damage amps, that extra low is a big deal.

As for PvP, ever since the slowcat meta got established, I'm not sure when that was though.
Rain6636
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-06-14 07:06:13 UTC
ooooooh okkkkk that explains a lot too.

#1 Fan of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-06-14 11:30:13 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Rain6636 wrote:
how long has this been going on?

I apologize; I've never looked beyond battleships. or high sec, really

For PvE, the introduction of the drone damage amplifier is what really did it. Without them, the extra low slots of an archon don't help you rat, and in fact the extra mids on the thanny for painters/sebos matter. With drone damage amps, that extra low is a big deal.

As for PvP, ever since the slowcat meta got established, I'm not sure when that was though.


It was about a year and half ago at CJ-6, pl and nc. Dropped them on the final station timer.

Highly situational though, slowcats really only work defensively, and them you better have super superiority,because 150 carriers in one place fighting draws out titans like no other.
Rain6636
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-06-14 12:43:07 UTC
so about slowcats.

is it for the instant damage and welp-ability of T2 sentries compared to fighters and fighter bombers?

I fly a RR sentry rattlesnake setup (I like to call slowkittehs), so I get it, I think. tanky, insta damage, control range augs out to like... 110km with two?

I don't know what made me think Thannys would be a good buy. :-/

#1 Fan of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-06-14 13:30:50 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
They need to rebalance carriers:

Archon: stays as is
Chimera: Stays the same

Nid: Bonus applies to remote AND local reps - ie its got a good active tank, it can heal other ships better, but the lack of a resist bonus makes it not fare as well when reps are incoming

Thanny: 5% bonus to Fighter AND DRONE damage AND Hitpoints/speed/tracking/optimal per level

Then I think the carriers would be better balanced.



As a Chimaera pilot with one alt this pleases me (gime moar CPU TBH !!)

I'm about to train carrier/dreadnaught for my main pilot but still waiting for a significant change otherwise will be just jumping on the bandwagon of Moros before it gets nerf to the ground.
My main char is mostly and specifically Gallente trained despite being able to fly all races and I'm stuck with this Archon/Thanny argument looking so ridiculous it makes it really hard to commit training for one knowing the time training required to be efficient with.

As someone said above the fact the Thany bonus does not apply to all drones but only fighters makes it awkward, fighters are not really interesting dmg wise unless you're shooting structures...yay

On the other side Archon not receiving fighters dmg bonus has something you better choose when you pvp: EHP thx to resists bonus, and EHP with good dmg always better than glasscanon dps when it comes to big cap fights.

So yep, I'm stuck with my main char because of this crap and we don't have yet a regular faction carrier so at least I could continue to train for snowflake ships -_-'




removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Previous page123Next page