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Make Faction Weapons Useful
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Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-06-13 02:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Allow faction weapons (and all weapons greater than meta 5) to use T2 ammunition and be affected by the specialization skills. This would provide better modules to reach for in the offensive category, just like the defensive modules have their better faction variants.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Ridic Poison
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-06-13 03:11:21 UTC
NO
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-06-13 03:18:31 UTC
Ridic Poison wrote:
NO


Good answer. Well thought out. You could be a philosopher.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#4 - 2013-06-13 03:40:00 UTC
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-06-13 03:43:17 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.


This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Ridic Poison
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-06-13 03:49:49 UTC
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer



you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#7 - 2013-06-13 03:57:53 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.


This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.


As it should be? According to whom?

Faction weapons are better than t2 in many circumstances when used with faction or t1 ammo. A lot of PvE nightmares for example use faction guns because they use significantly less cap. Faction launchers do more dps than t2 launchers loaded with t1 or faction ammo.

Faction guns are fine.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-06-13 04:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Ridic Poison wrote:
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer



you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.


I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#9 - 2013-06-13 04:02:50 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Ridic Poison wrote:
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer



you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.


I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML?

Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-06-13 04:10:26 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Ridic Poison wrote:
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer



you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.


I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML?

Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing.


Then how do you respond to the noobs argument? Theoretically every new char should be able to use the CNB, but they don't. Price clearly has something to do with it. By the way I just checked my eft. I don't know anything about pve nightmares but as for the tengu you only get 14 extra dps from a set of faction launchers (using an rr tengu max skills and cn scourge missiles) 300 million for 14 dps is not realistic which is why I don't think these missile launchers see much use. One of the main challenges of EVE is cost effectiveness. Right now i don't think faction launchers and other weapons have a role, partially due to high cost and partially due to their being worse than T2.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-06-13 04:13:15 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.


This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.


As it should be? According to whom?


Me of course. On a more serious note, I was merely pointing out that there would then be a consistency between the progression of defensive faction equipment and offensive faction equipment. I just don't see faction weapons in their current state as having much of a role.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Ridic Poison
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-06-13 04:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ridic Poison
But your forgetting that you don't need any special skills to use them. and your getting 14more dps with faction launchers then t2 which take aleast one month to get the skills need to use.



As for T2 Large guns it take 2-3 months of train to get them the first time, while it take less then a month to get faction large guns.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-06-13 05:38:27 UTC
Ridic Poison wrote:
But your forgetting that you don't need any special skills to use them. and your getting 14more dps with faction launchers then t2 which take aleast one month to get the skills need to use.



As for T2 Large guns it take 2-3 months of train to get them the first time, while it take less then a month to get faction large guns.


Yeah but my counter point to that was that anyone who has not yet trained up to bs sized weaponry is probably not going to have that much in the way of cash anyway. Therefore those people will not have the capacity to use the expensive faction gear. Btw we could just set it so that you need the necessary T2 skills to use the T2 ammo and get the T2 benefits in the launchers. That way the launchers can still be used as a way to save training time but they can also be used as an overall improved weapon choice. This would definitely make the faction weapons flourish.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#14 - 2013-06-13 07:53:34 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing.

Really? Tell that to T3 cruisers or shield boosters or most things in the game actually. The more costly an item the better it is, a lot of the time. Those item types where that isn't the case, the expensive high meta versions simply don't get used. Like the faction weapons, for example.

How many of you have actually used faction weapons? Did you really use them between getting tech I and tech II weapons? I certainly didn't and I don't know anyone in the game who did. I doubt that many people do.

Personally, I think that faction weapons should be buffed to make them competitive with Tech II but rather than allow the use of tech II ammo they should have a bonus to using the same faction's faction ammo in order to give them a little bit more dps than tech II guns and tech II ammo.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#15 - 2013-06-13 08:03:22 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Price isn't really that much of a factor in balancing.

Really? Tell that to T3 cruisers or shield boosters or most things in the game actually. The more costly an item the better it is, a lot of the time. Those item types where that isn't the case, the expensive high meta versions simply don't get used. Like the faction weapons, for example.

How many of you have actually used faction weapons? Did you really use them between getting tech I and tech II weapons? I certainly didn't and I don't know anyone in the game who did. I doubt that many people do.

Personally, I think that faction weapons should be buffed to make them competitive with Tech II but rather than allow the use of tech II ammo they should have a bonus to using the same faction's faction ammo in order to give them a little bit more dps than tech II guns and tech II ammo.


I use faction weapons when fitting is tight generally, but given the recent rebalancing of ships and some weapons it's become less of an issue and taken a little of the need for better fitting weaponry out of the game. Cosmos particularly fits into this category with often very comfortable fittings but poorer dps (sometimes even below the meta 3/4 items).
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-06-13 08:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
When talking about cost, fitting a full rack of faction weapons is enormous. It simply doesnt scale with the rest of faction stuff and the fact that people say T2 is better than faction then what the hell is going on with faction webs and scrams and resists and hardeners?

Tiercide to ships is going well. The next step would be to fix the massive issues with the tiered modules. Modules should be "roled" like ships and not be "This is the best so use this and nothing else"( I'm looking at you rolled tungsten plates).
Faction weapons fall into this mess and do need a rebalance. An easy fix would be to make specialisation skills effect all weapons/drones instead of just T2. This would give a decent buff to faction weapons and drones and also make using High meta T1 weapons appealing with the specialisation skill. T2 then retains the versatility of T2 ammo.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#17 - 2013-06-13 08:43:39 UTC
No.

In my opinion faction weapons need to be changed as following:

a) give them a 30% bonus to optimal range / fall off range / missile flight time.
b) reduce their costs in LP store so that taking everything into account they cost no more than 3 times of the same T2 weapon.

Thats's all.
This gives them a role, haveing a bit less DPS than T2 weapons, but having better range than T2 weapons with T1 ammo.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#18 - 2013-06-13 08:48:54 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Then how do you respond to the noobs argument? Theoretically every new char should be able to use the CNB, but they don't. Price clearly has something to do with it.
Lol what do noobs have to do with balancing? The power of ships aren't balanced on their accessibility to newbie players.


Vassal Zeren wrote:
By the way I just checked my eft. I don't know anything about pve nightmares but as for the tengu you only get 14 extra dps from a set of faction launchers (using an rr tengu max skills and cn scourge missiles) 300 million for 14 dps is not realistic which is why I don't think these missile launchers see much use.
If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price.

Vassal Zeren wrote:
One of the main challenges of EVE is cost effectiveness. Right now i don't think faction launchers and other weapons have a role, partially due to high cost and partially due to their being worse than T2.
If your answer to the challenge of cost-effectiveness is faction mods you're doing something wrong.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-06-13 10:52:25 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

If price determined cost-effectiveness than a lot of officer gear should be multiple times more effective than what they currently are. They're at that price because clearly enough people are willing to buy them at that price.


Wrong. Cost and effectiveness do not scale proportionately in EvE. They scale exponentially. People pay through the nose to gain very small advantages. This is as intended.

Faction weapons are expensive because of LP to ISK exchange rate. People will not trade for less than the current LP rate. People won't pay for faction weapons when T2 is very accessable and for a tiny fraction of the price. (faction drones are in a similar state.

Like I said above. Make the weapon specialisation skill effect all the weapons and not just T2. Then it will buff faction gear fairly well.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#20 - 2013-06-13 11:03:59 UTC
Meditril wrote:
No.

In my opinion faction weapons need to be changed as following:

a) give them a 30% bonus to optimal range / fall off range / missile flight time.
b) reduce their costs in LP store so that taking everything into account they cost no more than 3 times of the same T2 weapon.

Thats's all.
This gives them a role, haveing a bit less DPS than T2 weapons, but having better range than T2 weapons with T1 ammo.


I like this idea although the cost would need to be dropped as well. They're just too expensive for that role, currently.
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