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Quantum Entanglement Success

Author
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#1 - 2013-06-08 20:04:46 UTC
It's been done.
Secondary.

And they've achieved a 100% success on particle entanglement at the University of Copenhagen, teleporting information a total of 50cm.

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Unverified reports suggest the device is made out of Lego. Bear

This also means that Australians will get a better ping to Tranquillity I suppose, along with interesting effects on flash trading systems used in banks.

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Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#2 - 2013-06-08 22:05:40 UTC
Kirjava wrote:

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Not yet the specialist about this, but AFAIK quantum teleportation does not transmit information in a classical sense. Also the article does not say anything about FTL communication from what I see.
Amanda Chelian
#3 - 2013-06-08 23:06:57 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kirjava wrote:

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Not yet the specialist about this, but AFAIK quantum teleportation does not transmit information in a classical sense. Also the article does not say anything about FTL communication from what I see.


I'm quite ignorant on the subject, but what little I understand implies you can send a 1-bit signal with a single particle. Assuming the frequency can be very high, and that you can have multiple particles transmitting data in parallel, you can have a reasonable amount of bandwidth flowing from point A to B.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#4 - 2013-06-09 00:46:05 UTC
Amanda Chelian wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kirjava wrote:

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Not yet the specialist about this, but AFAIK quantum teleportation does not transmit information in a classical sense. Also the article does not say anything about FTL communication from what I see.


I'm quite ignorant on the subject, but what little I understand implies you can send a 1-bit signal with a single particle. Assuming the frequency can be very high, and that you can have multiple particles transmitting data in parallel, you can have a reasonable amount of bandwidth flowing from point A to B.


The problem is that they randomly alter their spin on their own, and the simple act of observing can alter them as well. The system would have a LOT of "noise" and you'd have to confirm when the other end was "observing" through another means. It really isn't practical or even feasible.
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#5 - 2013-06-09 03:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: LittleTerror
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Amanda Chelian wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kirjava wrote:

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Not yet the specialist about this, but AFAIK quantum teleportation does not transmit information in a classical sense. Also the article does not say anything about FTL communication from what I see.


I'm quite ignorant on the subject, but what little I understand implies you can send a 1-bit signal with a single particle. Assuming the frequency can be very high, and that you can have multiple particles transmitting data in parallel, you can have a reasonable amount of bandwidth flowing from point A to B.


The problem is that they randomly alter their spin on their own, and the simple act of observing can alter them as well. The system would have a LOT of "noise" and you'd have to confirm when the other end was "observing" through another means. It really isn't practical or even feasible.


wouldn't reducing its temperature to absolute zero prevent it from moving randomly, then I suppose in theory one could use a form of rapid temperature altering to mimic on/off by replacing 1 and 0 with moving and not moving, its just as a well not everyone thinks the way you do =/ We wouldn't have computers or smart phones today if everyone assumed these ideas were impossible.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#6 - 2013-06-09 04:36:29 UTC
LittleTerror wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Amanda Chelian wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
Kirjava wrote:

Applications would be theoretically real time communications with Space Probes, due to the hypothetical yet unverified in the lab entangled nature, yielding a virtual FTL communications platform.

Not yet the specialist about this, but AFAIK quantum teleportation does not transmit information in a classical sense. Also the article does not say anything about FTL communication from what I see.


I'm quite ignorant on the subject, but what little I understand implies you can send a 1-bit signal with a single particle. Assuming the frequency can be very high, and that you can have multiple particles transmitting data in parallel, you can have a reasonable amount of bandwidth flowing from point A to B.


The problem is that they randomly alter their spin on their own, and the simple act of observing can alter them as well. The system would have a LOT of "noise" and you'd have to confirm when the other end was "observing" through another means. It really isn't practical or even feasible.


wouldn't reducing its temperature to absolute zero prevent it from moving randomly, then I suppose in theory one could use a form of rapid temperature altering to mimic on/off by replacing 1 and 0 with moving and not moving, its just as a well not everyone thinks the way you do =/ We wouldn't have computers or smart phones today if everyone assumed these ideas were impossible.


It isn't about being "impossible", it is about being unreliable and therefore not remotely practical. You could send 1 bit with reasonable confidence it was recieved if you had synchronized atomic clocks at both ends and a pre-scheduled picosecond where you made the transmission - the odds of random switching is slim in that scenario, and you are aware of exactly when the other end observes the particle. Expanding that to multiple bits, let alone simultaneous ones that can interact with each other, and you are basically staring at television static. There is a lot of random noise happening, and the mechanics are not fully understood. You need perfect coordination between the sender and receiver (which requires an entirely separate system limited by the speed of light planning the transmissions of bits) for this sort of thing to be possible.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#7 - 2013-06-09 06:48:57 UTC
However as shown in the article the team have found a way to make series bit teleportation happen reliably.

The quantum entanglement phenomenon is believed to become a fundamental pproperty of the two materials. Spin on in one direction and you spin both in opposit directions, regardless of their positions in space. Its not true ftl transmissions as it doesn't actually transmit data, it just is.

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Tasha Voronina
Caldari Navy Reserve Force
#8 - 2013-06-09 11:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasha Voronina
Slim bit on physics in here: if suddenly it becomes possible to transmit data with an FTL speed, then "suddenly" a lot of people will lose their jobs (physicists) - this would effectively throw causality out the window. So ... yeah. In any case, the thing with quantum entanglement is this: as soon as you make a measurement (which you need to to transmit data), you destroy the entangled state. Hurdle number one - to keep data flowing, you'd have to keep replenishing entangled particles (so far it's only possible to entangle them while they're "close"). Problem number two: what do you consider a signal as opposed to noise? You cannot "agree on a time to transmit data" (generally speaking, with FTL transmissions - it can work with normal signals) because if the transmission really is FTL (in this case, the speed of the change of particle state is, as far as current physics go, infinite) there is no such thing as "simultaneous" (feel free to look up what this means in special relativity).

... Ok, I might go check the links out now P

Edit: This calls for a research paper read because those links do not provide sufficient information for me to understand exactly what the experiment entails and what the results are. If anyone happens to have a link before I go searching myself ...

Edit2: ... ok, brief search and having read the paper abstract, it's not FTL communications, but the transmission of a full and uncollapsed quantum state that is being claimed, if I'm not hugely mistaken (which is transmitted via laser light).

Edit3: fixed some logic and/or physics in this post, see post below mine for reasons and original quote.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#9 - 2013-06-09 12:21:42 UTC
Tasha Voronina wrote:
You cannot "agree on a time to transmit data" because if the transmission really is FTL (in this case, the speed of the change of particle state is, as far as current physics go, infinite) and hence there is no such thing as "simultaneous" (feel free to look up what this means in special relativity).


That can be accounted for, especially when done on the same planet (identical frame of reference, the only adjustments needing to be made are for altitude).

But yes, there really isn't such a thing as simultaneous, particularly when travelling at extreme velocities (when frames of reference do all sorts of goofy ****).
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#10 - 2013-06-09 13:05:13 UTC
Tasha Voronina wrote:
Slim bit on physics in here: if suddenly it becomes possible to transmit data with an FTL speed, then "suddenly" a lot of people will lose their jobs (physicists) - this would effectively throw causality out the window.


Why would that trow causality out of the window?

Tasha Voronina wrote:

because if the transmission really is FTL (in this case, the speed of the change of particle state is, as far as current physics go, infinite) there is no such thing as "simultaneous" (feel free to look up what this means in special relativity).


Actually there is such a thing as simultaneous. In quantum theory two entangled particles are described with one wavefunction. If you take a measurement on one particle, that wavefunction changes and this has consequences for the properties of both particles no matter how far they are apart. This is IMHO exactly what happens in this experiment.
Tasha Voronina
Caldari Navy Reserve Force
#11 - 2013-06-09 14:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasha Voronina
@Karak: why FTL information transmission throws causality out of the window is, in simple terms, as following - there is a certain inertial frame of reference or sequence thereof (or such that can be constructed via Lorentz transformations) that you can then transmit information from the future of a worldline to the past of said worldline, effectively affecting the past of a particle by it's future. (Concept of worldlines see for example wikipedia or your trusted literature on special relativity)

I may address the rest properly when I can write up a proper explanation, for which I right now sadly lack the time. However, some simple stuff that may help being said: an event is considered "simultaneous" in two different inertial frames when a) the clocks of those two inertial frames have been synchronized and then b) an event occurs at the same t0 for both frames of reference. How the clocks are synchronized is with a radio signal - it's important to note that this process occurs only once, not continuously. (If I am mistaken here, please do correct me, but also please cite the source(s))

So yes, while there is indeed such a thing as "simultaneous" between two points (and my wording in the previous post has been less than fortunate), it is important to differentiate between "simultaneous" and "instantaneous" (when we're talking about wonky physics, anyway). With quantum entangled states, we're talking "instantaneous" collapse of the entangled wave function. It is my latest information that this "instant setting of entangled particle states no matter the separation" is not considered a violation of the STR because there is no way that actual information may be transmitted using this mechanism (the argument goes along the lines of "you have to know a measurement has been made at the other end, and you can only know that via a signal that travels with the speed of light"). This article, as I wrote in the edit, is, if I'm not mistaken, talking about transferring uncollapsed quantum states from one system to another (which is, again if I'm not mistaken, referred to as quantum teleportation) using a laser beam. No FTL involved here.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#12 - 2013-06-10 00:13:57 UTC
@Tasha: I understand what you say. My concern is simply that if we talk about a quantum effect that shows clearly nonlocal behavior, it may not be relevant what a theory like the STR says about causality where events are always local. Just my not-yet-physics-bachelor opinion which may be flawed and be revised at any time Smile
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#13 - 2013-06-10 18:35:01 UTC
I find this thread interesting.

Blood is shooting out of my nose and ears..but im trying to keep up. Big smile

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-06-10 20:11:11 UTC
Tasha Voronina wrote:
*BIG BRAIN BANG BOOM STUFF WENT HERE!!!!!!*
*/paraphrase*
No FTL involved here.



Some folk are looking into this though

and yes it hurts my head but i try.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.

Socks the Fox
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-06-10 20:12:11 UTC
I always understood quantum entanglement as follows:

You have 2 M&Ms, a red one and a green one. You put each in it's own opaque envelope. They are now "entangled." You mail one randomly selected envelope to China. Later, you open the envelope you still have, and based on it's color instantly know the color of the one that's in China.

The issue with trying to use it for FTL communications is, you can't change anything about the M&M in China. If you have the green one, nothing you do can make the red one in China become green without directly interacting with it again. You also can't change it from a regular M&M to a peanut M&M, or from a red M&M to a red Skittle, or anything of that sort without getting your butt out to China and changing it yourself.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#16 - 2013-06-13 01:03:11 UTC
Socks the Fox wrote:
I always understood quantum entanglement as follows:

You have 2 M&Ms, a red one and a green one. You put each in it's own opaque envelope. They are now "entangled." You mail one randomly selected envelope to China. Later, you open the envelope you still have, and based on it's color instantly know the color of the one that's in China.


The thing is that until you open the envelop both M&Ms are red and green at the same time. The system is in a superposition. If you open one envelop you change the system and what you see is a green or a red M&M. At the same time the other M&M will be in the opposite color because there was actually only one envelop wrapped around both M&Ms no matter how far they where apart.

Now you may say that's bs, they probably had that color all along and only because your theory is incomplete or you don't know which one is one if you don't look doesn't make this superposition a reality.

Turns out there are certain measurements that would yield different results if that would be the case. So far all the experiments seam to tell us that the M&Ms actually are in this superposition and they don't have only one color until you open the envelope.

This is called Bell's theorem.

And that's why you can't simplify it by calling particles M&Ms, wavefunctions envelops and spin color :-). There is no classical representation of this. The weirdness only vanishes if you describe it in mathematical terms. For now that's probably the only way how we can understand it.

Also i'm far from understanding it myself :-) i'm still digesting that stuff and hope i did not write to much bs.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#17 - 2013-06-13 01:10:45 UTC
Its damn complicated, and man cannot understand everything to the depths of a master at once so we'd be fools to pretend we understand the underlying mathematics leading to the realisations of whats going on when the leaders of the field admit they have only an educated guess.

What I do understand is that the end result is real time communication over theoretically infinite distance, like watching an explosion in the distance you can see the light, and hear the boom, we will read the quantum output and then see the light come some time later.

Long as I can transmit kitten videos to Martian colonies in real time, its all good.

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Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#18 - 2013-06-13 02:19:22 UTC
I f-ing love OOPE!

I know why I left EVE for over a year and a half, but now I know why I am back in OOPE.

I now little of physics at this level, but as stated above, I like to read and I will try to keep up Big smile
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#19 - 2013-06-13 21:39:34 UTC
Every time I read something like this I imagine this will happen next ...

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco