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132 sensor strength Brutix vs. 5 light ECM drones. Results - predictable.

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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-06-12 20:42:19 UTC
I like ECM drones. Cool But actually I think that when they jam the other guy, your lock on the target should automatically break as well. That would make them fairer.
Khira Kitamatsu
#22 - 2013-06-12 20:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Khira Kitamatsu
Then there are times when you are in a small gang and all have ECM drones(we're talking 25 drones here) and none of them worked. ECM drones are a hit and miss. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes you are not. I think the percentage for them to work is very low. They are great to have and do work from time to time, but I sure as hell wouldn't rely on them to work 100% of the time. The two people you faced just got lucky.

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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#23 - 2013-06-12 21:01:14 UTC
Actually, ECM drones are seriously underpowered compared to actual ECM modules. Unlike regular ECM, there is (to the best of my knowledge) not a single module, skill or implant that can boost the power of an ECM drone (even the ECM drone skill only adds range to drones, which is very misleading). Regular ECM, on the other hand... can be boosted in all sorts of ways. It can also be countered in all sorts of ways too, and those counters work on drones just as well as anything else.

So it's not the ECM drones that need to be nerfed (if anything, they need to be buffed) - it's the ECM rules as a whole that needs changing. It's an all-or-nothing system, with a flat 20 second timer slapped on arbitrarily. It's silly and, by EvE standards, far too simple.

What I propose to ECM as a whole: Change the system so that ECM is rolled per weapon system. So if someone has eight turrets and you try to ECM them, your ECM makes eight rolls - one against each turret. If you've got a 25% chance then you will probably jam two of their turrets per cycle. A jammed turret cannot fire for one cycle, but the rest operate normally.

In this way ECM now becomes comparable to other EWAR methods such as SD and TD. It will be far more effective at weakening targets but won't likely result in total shut down. Remember, rolling against eight turrets means you're getting eight rolls - so you're actually eight times as likely to score an ECM "hit" ... but that hit won't mean as much as it used to. ECM now becomes something that works on a gradient instead of coin flip "no effect vs total shutdown" like it is now.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-06-12 21:01:45 UTC
Rath Kelbore wrote:
Tippia wrote:
18% chance, so it's not exactly out of the ordinary…


Can we see the math on that?

Chance to jam = 1 - (1 - Jam Strength / Sensor Strength)^Jammers

That's the formula I've always thought was correct.

1-(1-1/132)^5 = approximately .037 or 3.7 percent.

That being said, I can understand the OP's frustration at getting jammed by ecm drones so often.


It gets really interesting when you you plot the cumulative percentages over time.

Let's just say that ECM drones always work...eventually. That's why they're such a great deal! For a mere 50k ISK you are guaranteed to ECM someone out of a fight for 20 seconds, assuming you can stay alive that long. Considering that landing your ECM increases your odds of not losing the current fight substantially, is it any wonder they're used so often?

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#25 - 2013-06-12 21:04:05 UTC
pretty sure after rule number one of eve ( don't fly what you cant afford to loose) is the ECM rule.

any time you are using ecm drone against someone, they will NEVER jam him.

if someone uses ECM drones against you, you will be permajammed.
Haulie Berry
#26 - 2013-06-12 21:04:47 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
I like ECM drones. Cool But actually I think that when they jam the other guy, your lock on the target should automatically break as well. That would make them fairer.


Also, when your guns do damage to someone else, they should do damage to you, too.

And when you web someone else, it should web you too.

And when you tracking disrupt someone else, it should TD you, too.

That would be fairer.... somehow.
Khira Kitamatsu
#27 - 2013-06-12 21:08:39 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Actually, ECM drones are seriously underpowered compared to actual ECM modules. Unlike regular ECM, there is (to the best of my knowledge) not a single module, skill or implant that can boost the power of an ECM drone (even the ECM drone skill only adds range to drones, which is very misleading). Regular ECM, on the other hand... can be boosted in all sorts of ways. It can also be countered in all sorts of ways too, and those counters work on drones just as well as anything else.

So it's not the ECM drones that need to be nerfed (if anything, they need to be buffed) - it's the ECM rules as a whole that needs changing. It's an all-or-nothing system, with a flat 20 second timer slapped on arbitrarily. It's silly and, by EvE standards, far too simple.

What I propose to ECM as a whole: Change the system so that ECM is rolled per weapon system. So if someone has eight turrets and you try to ECM them, your ECM makes eight rolls - one against each turret. If you've got a 25% chance then you will probably jam two of their turrets per cycle. A jammed turret cannot fire for one cycle, but the rest operate normally.

In this way ECM now becomes comparable to other EWAR methods such as SD and TD. It will be far more effective at weakening targets but won't likely result in total shut down. Remember, rolling against eight turrets means you're getting eight rolls - so you're actually eight times as likely to score an ECM "hit" ... but that hit won't mean as much as it used to. ECM now becomes something that works on a gradient instead of coin flip "no effect vs total shutdown" like it is now.


You know...this isn't such a bad ideal. I think I like it very much. CCP should actually consider this.

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Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-06-12 21:13:45 UTC
This kind of post always bring some mostalgy back, i miss the old VampiDom and the *TRUE* ECM days Twisted
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-12 21:18:02 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Actually, ECM drones are seriously underpowered compared to actual ECM modules. Unlike regular ECM, there is (to the best of my knowledge) not a single module, skill or implant that can boost the power of an ECM drone (even the ECM drone skill only adds range to drones, which is very misleading). Regular ECM, on the other hand... can be boosted in all sorts of ways. It can also be countered in all sorts of ways too, and those counters work on drones just as well as anything else.

So it's not the ECM drones that need to be nerfed (if anything, they need to be buffed) - it's the ECM rules as a whole that needs changing. It's an all-or-nothing system, with a flat 20 second timer slapped on arbitrarily. It's silly and, by EvE standards, far too simple.

What I propose to ECM as a whole: Change the system so that ECM is rolled per weapon system. So if someone has eight turrets and you try to ECM them, your ECM makes eight rolls - one against each turret. If you've got a 25% chance then you will probably jam two of their turrets per cycle. A jammed turret cannot fire for one cycle, but the rest operate normally.

In this way ECM now becomes comparable to other EWAR methods such as SD and TD. It will be far more effective at weakening targets but won't likely result in total shut down. Remember, rolling against eight turrets means you're getting eight rolls - so you're actually eight times as likely to score an ECM "hit" ... but that hit won't mean as much as it used to. ECM now becomes something that works on a gradient instead of coin flip "no effect vs total shutdown" like it is now.


This is an awesome idea!

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Bl4ck Ph03n1x
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-12 21:26:33 UTC
No it's not. It's like an other way of achieving the goal of a tracking disruptor.
But yeah, still 1000s times better than dice (t)roll mechanics.

Don't feed the trolls.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-06-12 21:37:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
oh look, another whine about rng being random.

He makes valid points. Boosting / overloaded dual ECCM vs a couple thousand isk worth of drones. Need to learn when a post is a valid post vs when its just whining and you'll be a gun poster like me.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
FDIC Agent
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-06-12 21:45:13 UTC
I understand the concept of smartbombs to kill the ECM drones, but I do high sec wars as well and you can't really use those there.

It is just a shame that the only real counter is using the very same broken mechanic. I'm curious why CCP insists on keeping the anti-fun mechanic the way it is.

Anyways, only two weeks before Caldari cruiser five on my alt and he will be flying a falcon constantly. I plan on perma jamming everyone, even if they stood no chance at all, just to rub in how messed up the mechanic is.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#33 - 2013-06-12 21:46:26 UTC
Bl4ck Ph03n1x wrote:
No it's not. It's like an other way of achieving the goal of a tracking disruptor.


Katran Luftschreck wrote:
In this way ECM now becomes comparable to other EWAR methods such as SD and TD.


Correct... that's the point. To make ECM comparable to other forms of EWAR.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-06-12 21:48:05 UTC
FDIC Agent wrote:
I understand the concept of smartbombs to kill the ECM drones, but I do high sec wars as well and you can't really use those there.

It is just a shame that the only real counter is using the very same broken mechanic. I'm curious why CCP insists on keeping the anti-fun mechanic the way it is.

Anyways, only two weeks before Caldari cruiser five on my alt and he will be flying a falcon constantly. I plan on perma jamming everyone, even if they stood no chance at all, just to rub in how messed up the mechanic is.


I'll be awaiting your post about how you missed jam cycles for 2 fights in a row even though you have a 90 percent chance of jamming them Big smile

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-06-12 21:51:57 UTC
Aldap wrote:
Its well known ECM drones should more or less be completely removed from the game


lol
NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#36 - 2013-06-12 22:04:50 UTC
Wow OP. Those guys have serious good luck against you. I feel you man.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#37 - 2013-06-12 22:10:00 UTC
FDIC Agent wrote:
I understand the concept of smartbombs to kill the ECM drones, but I do high sec wars as well and you can't really use those there.

It is just a shame that the only real counter is using the very same broken mechanic. I'm curious why CCP insists on keeping the anti-fun mechanic the way it is.

Anyways, only two weeks before Caldari cruiser five on my alt and he will be flying a falcon constantly. I plan on perma jamming everyone, even if they stood no chance at all, just to rub in how messed up the mechanic is.


Recruit some newbs and hand them frigates / destroyers, tell them to go for the drones before applying DPS to anything larger. I don't like their mechanics either nor the whole jamming concept. If you are unsure as to what drone type someone is carrying you may opt to let yourself be agressed, and burn back to the gate in hopes of him showing, opening a Limited Engagement only if the drones are non-ECM. If someone denies you your lock you can at least deny them the kill.
Dave Stark
#38 - 2013-06-12 22:18:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
oh look, another whine about rng being random.

He makes valid points. Boosting / overloaded dual ECCM vs a couple thousand isk worth of drones. Need to learn when a post is a valid post vs when its just whining and you'll be a gun poster like me.


no he doesn't.

look at his sample size. presenting a random outlier as "proof" is about as dumb as it gets.
Dalts
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#39 - 2013-06-12 22:37:17 UTC
Personally I'd make it so you had to have a new mid slot module fit for ECM drones to work (or to boost their jam pooints to near current levels) so that they were still viable on non-combat ships but became much more of a trade off for combat ships.
Herr Esiq
Viziam
#40 - 2013-06-12 22:52:36 UTC
Even though this happens to me as well, i still laugh at your misfortune OP.. Cool