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CCP: Quit screwing with the scanning mechanics. Just stop it. It's ******* annoying.

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#21 - 2011-11-07 02:22:34 UTC
No ninja patches. OP just sucks at scanning. Astrometrics 5 (for survey probes), rangefinding 3, pinpointing 4 (only because I hate having the sigs jump around) on an unbonuses ship and using only 4 sister's core probes, I have no problem finding any signature. In fact, I lock most sigs at 0.5 AU. Only the really small stuff or best sites do I ahve to reduce range to 0.25. Practice moar instead of crying to CCP to make it easier. Probing is already very easy.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Selinate
#22 - 2011-11-07 02:41:05 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
No ninja patches. OP just sucks at scanning. Astrometrics 5 (for survey probes), rangefinding 3, pinpointing 4 (only because I hate having the sigs jump around) on an unbonuses ship and using only 4 sister's core probes, I have no problem finding any signature. In fact, I lock most sigs at 0.5 AU. Only the really small stuff or best sites do I ahve to reduce range to 0.25. Practice moar instead of crying to CCP to make it easier. Probing is already very easy.


a CCP dev has already admitted on the old forums to ninja patching the system with Incarna. Try again.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#23 - 2011-11-07 02:44:32 UTC
Pinaculus wrote:
non judgement wrote:
Four in a square, one in the centre, all on the same level and then one above and one below. I usually just go the five probes, four in a square and one in the centre.



Above approach works very well, and is easy to implement. I've been trying to figure out an 8-probe config that works better, but haven't yet.


For 8 probes, I would probably go with either:

- 1 high, 1 low, 6 in a circle

- 4 high at N/S/E/W points and 4 low at NE / SE / SW / NW points

Personally, I just use 7 (1 high, 1 low, 1 on the NSEW points and 1 in the middle).

Now if we could just save our preferred pattern and have the probes automatically form up in that pattern...
Caldain Morrow
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-11-07 03:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Caldain Morrow
Foofad wrote:
It takes no more time than moving one probe. Select all probes, hold... shift I think? It's so reflexive now I don't even rememeber. Anyway, shift-dragging moves all probes at once. Then alt-dragging moves all probes around the center probe outward or inward from the center probe. It's freaking easy.


didn't know about the alt key scaling the pattern. sweet! scanning just went from damn nifty with e shift key(which I knew) to freaking sweet!

also: SILENCE!!!!! I probe you!
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#25 - 2011-11-07 04:02:05 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Selinate wrote:
As subject says. First they do a ninja patch on it to make it harder to scan, just because one dev over there thought it was a good idea for extra probes past 4 probes to make a difference, even though all it does is make the screen EVEN MORE CLUTTERED and a pain in the ass to use.

Now I come back after a hiatus, and I can't get a mag site above 65% with 4 sisters core probes in a rigged cov ops ship, with 4/5 level skills?

This is annoying. QUIT NINJA PATCHING A PERFECTLY GOOD SYSTEM.


Hi there. I'm the dev you're talking about. I don't think I've made much of a secret that I changed the formulas, but allow me to hit the motivations more for ya.

The scanning system was not a perfectly good system. When scanning in a highly populated system, the request would take many seconds of execution time due to poor scaling of the calculations backing it. In a world when we usually talk about things in thousandths of a second, a system eating up many seconds is a severe problem.

Allowing more than four probes to count solved one of the scaling problems. In the previous system, the "best four" probes for any given scan result were used, and due to some of the intricacies involved that meant calculating everything out for every combination of four probes. With all 8 probes in range, that's 70 combinations to compute for every result. If some day the fine folks over in design ever think allowing a 9th would be a good idea, that would have taken the worse case up to 126. Scaling with the factorial like that is plainly not acceptable.

So, I redid the formulas. They scale a ton better now and are loosely balanced to have 6 probes give about the same result as 4 used to, given reasonable geometric layout, as observed by posters above. Probe 7 and 8 are gravy.


Actually I have no issue getting the same speed with scanning with 4 probes even now. Once I hit 6 probes I literally spaz the **** out because there is no option to turn off ALL THE MOTHERFUCKING LINES AND GLOW EFFECTS from the stupid probe bubbles.
Tromin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-07 04:08:12 UTC
Max Skills, Rigged ship, 4 probes works 95% of the time, 5 probes works 100% of the time. I have even got some of the easier sites to100% at 2 AU like that.
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-07 04:37:20 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:

So, I redid the formulas. They scale a ton better now and are loosely balanced to have 6 probes give about the same result as 4 used to, given reasonable geometric layout, as observed by posters above. Probe 7 and 8 are gravy.



Does this apply to combat probes too?

In that case it's a nerf to combat probing and you should consider decreasing the deploytime of of combatprobes.
Raid'En
#28 - 2011-11-07 04:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
CCP Veritas wrote:

The scanning system was not a perfectly good system. When scanning in a highly populated system, the request would take many seconds of execution time due to poor scaling of the calculations backing it. In a world when we usually talk about things in thousandths of a second, a system eating up many seconds is a severe problem.

that's not the issue here.
he was saying that with the new system, it often take more time to do things than before.
and i share his opinion ; when you want to do multiple scanning, like searching which one is the wormhole on a system with dozen of signatures, it takes way more time, given we need more probes or more pass to attain the 25% on one.

if system takes less CPU it's good, but this system give the server what it takes from the players.
something to help us a bit would be welcomed
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-07 06:24:33 UTC
Cpt Fina wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:

So, I redid the formulas. They scale a ton better now and are loosely balanced to have 6 probes give about the same result as 4 used to, given reasonable geometric layout, as observed by posters above. Probe 7 and 8 are gravy.



Does this apply to combat probes too?

In that case it's a nerf to combat probing and you should consider decreasing the deploytime of of combatprobes.


Err, isn't the scan time improved now? That would mean that combat probes were buffed, when they really didn't need to be.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-11-07 08:07:27 UTC
dont take these detrimental comments to heart op...

there is something funky with the probing system .

i have seen it personally .

its complicated to explain i tried to explain it before but failed miserably .

and was greeted with the same response as you .

but basically 9 out 10 times your probing will work fine .

but there will be one that for some reasons gets goofy . i dont know why, there is no explanation for it. and i dont care how many probes you have or if your 5 5 5 5 + 5 and cov-oped and sistered the damn result will not probe.

usually if im in isk making mode i can come across a few examples a week . but like i said its hard to explain .

the only thing i have found that helps is to recall the probes and restart from scratch but try placing the pattern either higher or lower than before .

then you will get your result .

if you keep trying to scan down the result with out recalling your probes you will get disappearing results or < 99% results and you will never be able to probe it down .

just think of it as space time anomalies or something .. maybe one day it will happen to somebody who actually knows enough about probing and they can document the bug. but until then were just stuck with being called sucky probers and every thing is working fine .

when in reality it works mostly fine . but every now and then it will aggravate the living crap out of ya.
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2011-11-07 10:00:53 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Now if we could just save our preferred pattern and have the probes automatically form up in that pattern...

Oh, please CCP Veritas, very much this!

Also:

- Shift-drag drags only the selected probes; you may want to keep a probe on a sig while moving the rest of probes onto another.

- Same with alt-drag.

- Being able to toggle scanning alignment lines/range circles/textured spheres/effects. Mostly for clarity when many probes at different ranges overlap.

- Allow the Probe Launchers to auto-repeat the launch of probes till the probe magazine is empty, like other missile launchers.

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#32 - 2011-11-07 10:32:56 UTC
Confirming that OP just sucks at scanning. That's not to say that some of the people here saying that it's tricky to use aren't right as well. There are some "tricks" to learn. For starters, stop looking at all the spheres and lines and whatnot. Arrange the probes so that there is some overlap in the middle. You can use four probes 95% of the time (as mentioned), or use the 4 with one in the middle, or 4+1 and then 2 more above and below to really get results. In the end it doesn't matter, the ONLY shaded region you have to worry about is the darkest one where they ALL overlap. You want the signature you're trying to scan down in the middle of that. Use ALT + drag to keep the arrangement perfect (in other words, you only have to arrange them once, and then it's just scaling, which is infinitely easier and again, you don't have to worry about the lines and spheres).

If you are having trouble with the new probing system, watch some guides and read about it. The result is on the user end, sorry folks, but it's true, scanning with the new system using ATL+drag is so much easier than the old system, nothing has been made harder. It's true there's a certain finesse to the system, practice more and you'll get it down.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2011-11-07 10:33:07 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
No ninja patches. OP just sucks at scanning. Astrometrics 5 (for survey probes), rangefinding 3, pinpointing 4 (only because I hate having the sigs jump around) on an unbonuses ship and using only 4 sister's core probes, I have no problem finding any signature. In fact, I lock most sigs at 0.5 AU. Only the really small stuff or best sites do I ahve to reduce range to 0.25. Practice moar instead of crying to CCP to make it easier. Probing is already very easy.


a CCP dev has already admitted on the old forums to ninja patching the system with Incarna. Try again.


I don't need to try again. I already hit the nail on the head. You are not good at probing. If you were, you wouldn't be here crying for yet another boost to probing. Let me quote myself: "No ninja patches."

Bolded the important part. It was a publicly advertised change with intentional results, as the dev said. And that doesn't change the fact that you still can't probe well. Either skill-up some or follow the advice that has been provided. Now in order to get best results, you use 6 probes forming a tetrahedron or 8-sided geometric figure with the sig result at the center.

Or you can train a bit more and use only 4 probes so that you can more easily see your probe result on the system map. Works for me. But back a couple years ago, you actually needed to train those skills up to 4 or 5 to find those valuable DED, radar, and mag sites.


http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#34 - 2011-11-07 10:37:51 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Selinate wrote:
*Whine*

PWN


CCP Veritas Omnia Vincit

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#35 - 2011-11-07 11:30:12 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Now if we could just save our preferred pattern and have the probes automatically form up in that pattern...

This.
Please :D
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-07 23:34:18 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:

Err, isn't the scan time improved now? That would mean that combat probes were buffed, when they really didn't need to be.


They did?

I'm not telling I'm asking since I haven't followed the evolution of probes that closely. All I'm saying is that while launching time and scanningtime may not be very important when probing for sites, it does make a difference when probing for people.
Anaesthera
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-08 00:23:54 UTC
I find the best formation of probes is 5 probes- 4 in a triangle and one above, and place them with the middle probe on top of the beacon. Need to have one on a different altitude than the other 4 to prevent duplicate or reflection signals.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-11-08 00:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
3/3/3 skills, scanning in a battlecruiser using a regular launcher and sisters' probes. Never had any problems pinpointing down anything other than 10/10 plexes and gravimetric sites (which I don't care about anyway). PEBKAC.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#39 - 2011-11-08 00:40:02 UTC
Sri Nova wrote:
dont take these detrimental comments to heart op...

there is something funky with the probing system .

i have seen it personally .

its complicated to explain i tried to explain it before but failed miserably .

and was greeted with the same response as you .

but basically 9 out 10 times your probing will work fine .

but there will be one that for some reasons gets goofy . i dont know why, there is no explanation for it. and i dont care how many probes you have or if your 5 5 5 5 + 5 and cov-oped and sistered the damn result will not probe.


Under the old system - you could run into trouble if:

- Your probes were too close together
- They were on the same XYZ plane as another probe

(Think "interference patterns".)

So when we'd run into trouble in the old days, we'd wiggle a few of the probes up/down to get them off the same exactly Z level as the other probes. Which generally fixed the interference issues. But I'm not sure whether that game mechanic still exists.
Saru Koji
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-11-08 02:01:41 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:

So, I redid the formulas. They scale a ton better now and are loosely balanced to have 6 probes give about the same result as 4 used to, given reasonable geometric layout, as observed by posters above. Probe 7 and 8 are gravy.


Must have been a really tricky work. Props from a fellow (but not related to CCP) developper :)
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