Player Features and Ideas Discussion

In another forum post an idea was postulated to me for a T3 mining barge that I thought deserved its own thread.
I only skimmed other threads looking for a similar idea. Please post if you find that I have copied.


General Idea: A mining barge that sacrifices some of the direct yield of a T2 Mining Barge for Gate Camp protection and other subsystem goodies


Specifics:
T2 Cloaking (BALANCE ISSUES DESCRIBED LATER) - A T2 Cloak to allow warping while cloaked
Interdiction Nullifier - For 0.0 Gate Camp immunity
Strip Miners - A bonused set of 2 strip miners that would have less yield then a Hulk with reduced range vs. regular strip miners and an increase in cycle time
Tank - Minimal (So it isn't used in high sec for suicide gank protection)
DroneBay - 50m3 (extra rat-deterrent to compensate for the flimsier tank)
Cargohold - Minimal (it shouldn't be used for a 0.0 hauler)
Ore Bay - An immense orebay that would make the ship viable for extended solo mining operations in hostile territory


BALANCE ISSUES:

T2 Cloak - WTF?!? He's just going to cloak when we land on belt

No. Whenever the mining lasers are active the ship cannot cloak (like having a bubble active). The reduced range of the strips means it'd be very difficult to stay aligned and the bonus to cycle time means you'd be less likely to land on them at the end of a cycle.


Conclusion:
With mining sites becoming anomalies and their subsequent buffing I think a mining barge designed for the rigors of mobility through lowsec would provide an interesting "sideways" progression of the barge instead of just making a "better" barge. I think this ship would be perfect for balanced progression in the mining barge class.

I'm really interested in feedback on this idea.

EDIT: I changed the description of the ore bay as per the suggestions in this thread.

ORE Offensive - Ore Mining reconfiguration (X% Yield bonus per level, X% Bonus to Drone Damage and Hitpoints per level, Can fit Covops cloak, Covops cloak cannot be activated while mining)
ORE Offensive - Gas Mining reconfiguration (X% Bonus to gas yield per level, X% Bonus to Drone Damage and Hitpoints per level, Can fit Covops cloak, Covops cloak cannot be activated while mining)
ORE Offensive - Ice mining reconfiguration (X% Bonus to ice miner cycle time per level, X% Bonus to Drone Damage and Hitpoints per level, Can fit Covops cloak, Covops cloak cannot be activated while mining)

ORE Defensive - Adaptive Shielding (X% bonus to shield resistances per level, X% bonus to shield bot repair amount per level)
ORE Defensive - Amplification Node (X% bonus to shield booster effectiveness per level)
ORE Defensive - Supplemental Screening (X% Bonus to shield amount per level)

ORE Electronics - Information Sequencer (X% bonus to ship sensor strength, X% Bonus to CPU per level) (For unscannable setups)
ORE Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer (X% Bonus to Scan Strength per level, X% Scan Probe Launcher CPU Reduction)
ORE Electronics - Ore Scanning Efficiency Array (X% bonus to Ore Scanning range per level, X% Bonus to Tractor Beam Range and Velocity per level)

ORE Engineering - Augmented Ore bay (+Xkm3 ore bay per level)
ORE Engineering - Mining Efficiency (X% Bonus to Ore, Gas, and Ice Miner Capacitor Use)
ORE Engineering - Cargohold Expansion (+X% to Cargohold Capacity per level)

ORE Propulsion - Superstructure Reinforcement (X% Bonus to structure per level) + lots of lows
ORE Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier (Role Bonus: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, X% increased agility per level)
ORE Propulsion - Warp Core Stabilization (+X Warp Core Strength Per Level)

EDIT: After seeing a template pop up in this thread I decided to post my own idea of how a subsystem template for the T3 Mining Barge would look. Once again I'm looking for feedback, especially any math that would allow me to fill in those X's with numbers

EDIT: Here are some other subsystems of note that were suggested in the responses to this thread. If you prefer any of them vs. the ones posted in the original template, post about it and I will change the OP.

ORE Electronics - Mining Crystal Harmonic Generator (X% reduction to damage taken to mining crystals per level)
ORE Electronics - Automated Cycle Monitor (Role Bonus: Ore, Gas, and Ice Miners will deactivate early when there is less than a full cycle left to harvest or less than a full cycle left in the Ore Bay.)

Note: Any bonuses would follow the new CCP montra for T3 that says that any T3 bonus has to be less then its T2 counterpart

Most interesting effect this would have is allowing the exhumer to be bridged by a blops.

An interesting t3 aspect would be the ability to fight effectively in exchange for diminished mining capacity.

(Think like a skiff added with about 4 turret or launcher hard-points able to mount medium armaments)

I thought of a combat-capable T3 as well, but it would most likely be a drone ship as that's what ORE seems to rely on. But I decided not to include it in my original post because it seemed off-topic to what I was trying to get across.

As for BLOPsing mining ships....I really can't think of a situation in which it would be realistically used.

Ice Mining Lasers. Why don't they exist?

While this is a novel idea I don't think it improves upon my idea much. Nullsec gatecamps are defined by bubbles and would therefore skoff at warp core stability bonuses. And most serial gate campers are equipped with HICs anyways. The only real gate camp protection (aside from tiny gatecamps) in 0.0 is T2 covops cloak and interdiction nullifier.

And any increase in tank would make it a high sec issue with the inherent increase in suicide-gank prevention, which is something I was trying to avoid in my original post.

And bonusing to mining link efficiency would only be used in situations where there would be a POS or system lockdown already present, which means going against the idea of the mobility mining ship.

Note: Don't think I'm downing on you, because I think that this sort've idea deserves discussion. I just think gatecamp prevention generally needs to be more extreme

Don't worry, I know you aren't downing me.

It's true, there are a lot of bubbles out there deployed by the brave gatebears, so I can see the need for a T3 Interdiction Nullifier, but how many of those brave gatebears are also mounting their own anti-warp gear? Warp Stabs are probably still needed.

I, too, have found the best defense if a Covert Ops Cloak, I guess I stayed away from one in my post because, well, to me, it stops being "Covert" when so many ships can mount one. But, I think that with the game mechanics how they are, they're probably the best bet to get a barge-sized ship past those uber-PvPers.

The other thing about the brave gatebears is that you generally only have to avoid them once going in to low/null and once coming out since I have found they only bravely farm the systems bordering with high sec space.

I had been thinking about this since it was announced that ice would be moved to an anomaly and that the mineral content of the low/null ores would be changed to make them more valuable. I kept coming back to "don't fly what you can't afford to use", which is why I chose to stay with T1, possibly T2 if the payouts were extremely good. I'd love to see a T3, but I wouldn't want to take it out of High Sec. As I see it, you're going to lose a barge when you take it outside of High Sec. Not if, when, even if it's a fancy T3, so take something somewhat disposable. The Venture fits that, but it's ore hold isn't big enough to make the excursions worthwhile.

I also considered allowing the mounting of weapons (ala the Venture), but decided against that because what a barge could mount would be nothing to the various predators out there. Not even a deterrent. The only offensive type idea I came up with was possibly the use of Sentry Drones. But even those aren't necessarily a guarantee and they also have to be deployed and picked up and the barges are pretty slow. They'd pretty much just be covering the barges escape.

What's left is stealth and EW. Mounting enough ECCM can make a ship un-probable, so I went with that. Not perfect protection, but it would make a predator have to check out each individual ice and ore field to find you. Some won't.

Cloaks would be helpful, but not perfect either. First, you have to maintain your distance from the rocks. This is the least of the issues. Second, a barge is pretty slow. A predator could see you, see you cloak, align to your position and hit the MWD and force a de-cloak. Warp Stabs and tank come back into play.

A few extra medium slots and a long targeting range would be helpful for EW units as would the ability to have full use of ECM Bursts. Bonus those to the point where anyone within range to scramble a warp core would be affected.

When I mentioned tank, I am thinking Procurer/Skiff level tank. Nothing beyond that. I also considered making these unable to take advantage of Mining Foreman Links and reduce the yield bonus of the hi-sec barges. When I mentioned the particular yield bonus, I was thinking about a Procurer with it's one strip miner. Regardless of how many can be mounted, I'd at least halve the yield bonus of the corresponding T1/T2 barge. Give it the tank it needs to survive in dangerous space, but cut its yield enough that no one would really want to use it in high sec where efficient yield is much more important than the tank.

The problem I also see with going T3, besides the nearly Billion ISK pricetag, would be the hoops CCP would have to jump through to keep them from being the preferred high-sec barges, up to and including not allowing them in high sec at all like the Roqual. CCP could make these T3's perfectly suited to low and null sec, but the high sec bears would scream about them being useless and we would be subjected to post after post screaming about how these Billion ISK ships are useless.

Consider this.

Exhumers are awful dealing with gates. In the event of a hostile gate camp, the answer is always 'Forget It'.

But the Rorqual has this nice big SMB to hold them!
Yes, 5 hulks at max capacity with no support ships, or leave some out but still no ships not on it's limited approved list can be brought.
Add to this you had best have a POS at the destination, or your 4 to 5 hulks will not be secure against any hostiles showing up.

But bring a fleet to cover them!
Yeah... about that.... corps and alliances able and willing to post defense fleets already have their own space with POS's set up already. They effectively never need to go into unsecured space for this.
Able and willing never seems to be combined with need in the real game, on this detail.

Sooo, you want maybe more than 4 or 5 hulks, and possibly some scout ships to give a heads up when trouble comes in a few systems up the pipe.
But, you really don't like that exposure moving this mining fleet by gates, too exposed, and even if you get though you just had a parade go down the pipe that could easily tip off the very forces who want to rain on your op.

All of a sudden that BLOPS seems to be answering questions for the op.

Exhumers come in three flavors, currently. The mining barges are weaker versions.

You have Hulk, with greater yield.
You have Mackinaw, with greater capacity.
And you have Skiff, with takes longer to explode when being shot at.

Now, modify this by typical play dynamics:
In High, if you expect no trouble, fly a modest fit Hulk.
In High, if you expect no trouble and have hauling needs, fly a modest fit Mack.
In High, if you do expect trouble, fly a modest fit Skiff.

In Null, if you expect no trouble, fly a modest fit Hulk.
In Null, if you expect no trouble and have hauling needs, fly a modest fit Mack.
In Null, you should always expect trouble, so watch local.

You will notice the absence of the Skiff in the null version. That is because defense in null is all or nothing, due to current game mechanics.
Dieing slower is still dieing, and simply means you failed to watch local and stay aligned.
There is no reason to fly the current Skiff in null.

The tank on these do not make them more desirable, because being harder to kill only has meaning in high sec where you can be saved by Concord showing up.
Expecting player support to reinforce when the intel to avoid trouble was missing is a mismatched set of expectations.

Not enough to sell the ship, I am sorry to say.

In null, the rats can fly battleships, and often spawn two BS, with a support group of smaller ships.

Five medium drones are not enough to handle this before they eat your tank. And forget drone cross repping between two ships, they like shooting drones too.

Nope, you need a ship with dps to eat the rats, or with better defenses than a skiff to perma tank them.

And if you are solo with a skiff, fitted to perma tank rats... you can probably do better income focusing on the rats or mining in high sec instead.

Kor'el, I like the idea of shortening the cycle time rather than the yield. That makes a lot of sense considering the need to have some sort of "hit and run" mining ability for low and null.

The Skiff used to have a +2 Warp Stability but that was taken away. I wonder why? It was really the only thing that made it at all somewhat viable for low and null. As Nikk said, good tank just prolongs your eventual demise in low and null. CONCORD isn't there to save you.

I do not see any real help in giving any of the barges more drone DPS of any help other than with NPCs. Drones against a ganker? You'll only make them mad.

I think anything that could be viable outside of high sec needs to first get past the brave gatebears. Both going in and getting out. After crossing from high to low or null, gates tend to be pretty clear in my experience.

Next, it needs to deal with predators in a non-offensive way - stealth, EW, speed, tank, Warp Stabs etc. The Warp Stabs would help with both gatebears and escaping gank squads.

Finally, it needs to be able to haul enough materiel to make a trip outside of high sec to be worth it.

Ideally, yes, a mining fleet with a decent defensive force of combat ships would be ideal. But, even after the adjustments in Odyssey, I still do not think there is enough ISK in a venture like that to make it worthwhile for all parties involved.

As things are currently, I think CCP's best direction is to create a ship as I described above that makes either solo or small group mining viable outside of high sec. The BIG challenge is to not let it be totally overpowered in high sec.