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First post First post
Author
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2013-06-11 16:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Liam Mirren wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
T3's are not flexible in the manner to which you speak. The can't be all things at the same time. Besides what you're suggesting would make them subpar in all categories. If so, then please CCP, make sure it performs all roles at the same time. Then I would be ok with it being subpar in every role.


That's the point really, because they're now really good and focussed we don't regard them as being versatile, just as a direct upgrade with obvious benefits in stats. This makes it difficult for most ppl to see them as anything else and thus they base their issues and logic on this current fact.

Changing T3 to never be best at anything but actually, really, being versatile would make them less obvious choices for obvious stuff like missions or 300 man T3 fleets. It would however make them, perhaps, interesting in smaller engagements and for less straight forward PVE.

- edit -

Being able to swap Sub systems while in space (on its own) could be an interesting twistt. Perhaps create some form of "siege mode" with 2 minute cycles where you can't cloak, move or warp but you can swap out subs.


Ok 2 points here.

1) We have plenty of examples of ships not being the best at what they do. Noone uses them. So, you can understand my apprehension at a "nerf" to that extent. It's exactly why so many people hate T3's right now. Because it's a go to ship that apparently a lot of haters can't afford or won't. This mentality is insatiable. There will always be a go to ship and always haters because they can't/won't fly it. And CCP is shoving a shell game down our necks in the guise of content and apparently, a many more people don't realize that.

2) Refitting in space. Never going to happen. Noone is ever going to carry a billion or more in mods around to switch configs on the fly in a combat vessel. What? We'll be able to pull from stockpiles else where? Right. Same system as we store our stuff, yeah that's going to be flexible. I seriously doubt anything like this would ever occur. If it did you can be sure that CCP will build in some significant utterly vulnerable period to it that assures your death

But whatever the case, noone is going to fly a ship that performs a single role at a time that doesn't perform it at the top of the game.....other than noobs without skills, players without isk and fools who cling to racial loyalties. You can consider me, partially, the latter. I haven't trained the falcon or the pilgrim or Armageddon or the Bhaalgorn or any number of other ships of different races that do jobs better than what I can fly. On the other hand, unlike many in this thread, I also don't join the witch hunts to nerf them. Fcking deal with it. Learn how to counter them. Or learn when to turn the ship around and disengage. Being in a Proteus, one on one with a Pilgrim, I do not engage because I know what happens when I have no cap....and people are calling that overpowered.....give me a break!

CCP is feeding off ignorance, inexperience and trollism. CCP's motivation is not to balance a game, it's to increase its income. These continual nerfs of supposedly "overpowered" ship classes and types only serve to require more skill and more isk investment both of which mean more revenue for CCP.

Don't ban me, bro!

Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2013-06-11 16:34:15 UTC
so when you guys nerf T3s are you gonna get rid of skillpoint loss?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2013-06-11 18:21:56 UTC
Nah, they'll prolly keep it because *yawn* the code's too messy.

Don't ban me, bro!

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#364 - 2013-06-11 18:23:30 UTC
Casirio wrote:
so when you guys nerf T3s are you gonna get rid of skillpoint loss?

Why would they?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#365 - 2013-06-11 18:35:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Price can never be the sole balancing factor, agreed, but it most definitely can be A balancing factor, especially for ships which can be killed in routine engagements without the extraordinary effort required to down eg: a Titan.


Titans die anytime anybody puts the minimal effort into stalking and killing one.

Even by your own suddenly ******** logic my 100 billion isk titan should at the very least be balanced against other supers and caps, and yet one hic, and a single mothership, or 1 hic, and 5 dreads, can down a titan because they've been neutered so hard, because in the words of the CCP Devs, Price cannot be a factor in balancing.

But I guess since you're changing your mind on how you see balance I can assume you'll now be the champion of Titan buffing so that my Titan is the equal isk to power value in supers and or dreads. You know, making a titan worth 30 dreads worth of tank and firepower, or 4 supers of tank and firepower (roughtly 50k dps or so, and about 100 million hp by your logic).

Tell me why as they sit right now you'd ever use a HAC over a combat t3? Hell, tell me why you'd ever use a Huggin over a webbing (armor or shield) Loki? Oh whats that, you wouldn't? The T3 is significantly less training time you say? And outclasses just about everything it has to compete with you say? Oh its made several classes of ship simply useless you say and the only justifiable reason that you can come up with is price?

And cry me a rive about the skill point loss, as a guy who's lost 12 T3's and had to retrain those skills several times I can say that the 3-5 days it takes isn't really a detractor, and anybody who says it is, is largely just a whiney ninny.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Rune Ainur
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#366 - 2013-06-11 18:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Ainur
Ager Agemo wrote:
Got to agree with Tippia on this one, T3s already offer stuff that is just way too broken powerfull compared to T2 due to that flexibility its just fair their performance drops a bit in exchange for that flexibility.


think about it, how many HACs can fly cloaked, with 100mn ABs, doing 500dps on ham, while being immune to interdiction cap stable and with a resist bonus on top of native higher resistances? its just completely broken that a tengu can be a recon, a hac, a mini transport an interceptor at the same time and be superior on all the roles to all those ships togheter.

price is NEVER a performance measurement, if it was, marauders would be destroying capital ships like they were frigates and would be impervious to any sub capital ship.


You mad you can't catch T3s in your impossible-to-escape camped entrance systems to Providence?

I think so.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#367 - 2013-06-11 18:42:20 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Price can never be the sole balancing factor, agreed, but it most definitely can be A balancing factor, especially for ships which can be killed in routine engagements without the extraordinary effort required to down eg: a Titan.


Titans die anytime anybody puts the minimal effort into stalking and killing one.


OK go kill me one tonight.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#368 - 2013-06-11 18:52:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Price can never be the sole balancing factor, agreed, but it most definitely can be A balancing factor, especially for ships which can be killed in routine engagements without the extraordinary effort required to down eg: a Titan.


Titans die anytime anybody puts the minimal effort into stalking and killing one.


OK go kill me one tonight.


If anybody had bothered to try one would have died last night as it simply motor'd out of a pos afk, fortunately nobody bothered and the titan was warned and went back in, acting like titans are hard to kill, or daring the alliance thats killed more than anybody else in EVE to kill one makes you look....well it makes you look dumb malcanis.

I understand that your inept alliance struggles with it but mine doesn't, we average several killed a year, every year, for as long as I've been here.

Please though, go on and tell me about how price should matter in balance for everything except the most expensive ships in game.

I'm all ears.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#369 - 2013-06-11 18:55:50 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Price can never be the sole balancing factor, agreed, but it most definitely can be A balancing factor, especially for ships which can be killed in routine engagements without the extraordinary effort required to down eg: a Titan.


Titans die anytime anybody puts the minimal effort into stalking and killing one.

Even by your own suddenly ******** logic my 100 billion isk titan should at the very least be balanced against other supers and caps, and yet one hic, and a single mothership, or 1 hic, and 5 dreads, can down a titan because they've been neutered so hard, because in the words of the CCP Devs, Price cannot be a factor in balancing.

But I guess since you're changing your mind on how you see balance I can assume you'll now be the champion of Titan buffing so that my Titan is the equal isk to power value in supers and or dreads. You know, making a titan worth 30 dreads worth of tank and firepower, or 4 supers of tank and firepower (roughtly 50k dps or so, and about 100 million hp by your logic).

Tell me why as they sit right now you'd ever use a HAC over a combat t3? Hell, tell me why you'd ever use a Huggin over a webbing (armor or shield) Loki? Oh whats that, you wouldn't? The T3 is significantly less training time you say? And outclasses just about everything it has to compete with you say? Oh its made several classes of ship simply useless you say and the only justifiable reason that you can come up with is price?

And cry me a rive about the skill point loss, as a guy who's lost 12 T3's and had to retrain those skills several times I can say that the 3-5 days it takes isn't really a detractor, and anybody who says it is, is largely just a whiney ninny.



Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#370 - 2013-06-11 19:08:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Price can never be the sole balancing factor, agreed, but it most definitely can be A balancing factor, especially for ships which can be killed in routine engagements without the extraordinary effort required to down eg: a Titan.


Titans die anytime anybody puts the minimal effort into stalking and killing one.

Even by your own suddenly ******** logic my 100 billion isk titan should at the very least be balanced against other supers and caps, and yet one hic, and a single mothership, or 1 hic, and 5 dreads, can down a titan because they've been neutered so hard, because in the words of the CCP Devs, Price cannot be a factor in balancing.

But I guess since you're changing your mind on how you see balance I can assume you'll now be the champion of Titan buffing so that my Titan is the equal isk to power value in supers and or dreads. You know, making a titan worth 30 dreads worth of tank and firepower, or 4 supers of tank and firepower (roughtly 50k dps or so, and about 100 million hp by your logic).

Tell me why as they sit right now you'd ever use a HAC over a combat t3? Hell, tell me why you'd ever use a Huggin over a webbing (armor or shield) Loki? Oh whats that, you wouldn't? The T3 is significantly less training time you say? And outclasses just about everything it has to compete with you say? Oh its made several classes of ship simply useless you say and the only justifiable reason that you can come up with is price?

And cry me a rive about the skill point loss, as a guy who's lost 12 T3's and had to retrain those skills several times I can say that the 3-5 days it takes isn't really a detractor, and anybody who says it is, is largely just a whiney ninny.



Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.


Yes because you have say in the design process, sorry thats not the way it works, I know what the CSM is and how it works, and I know what your limitations are.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

FraXy
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#371 - 2013-06-11 19:50:19 UTC
If anyone responsible for balancing or can pass along.

When T3s are receiving the critical stare, bribe someone to code the rig slots onto the Engineering subsystem so we can have a relatively inexpensive way to CHANGE THE GODDAMN RIGS.

Thank you.

One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#372 - 2013-06-11 19:51:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The other huge barrier to "flexibility" is rigs. If I have to destroy the rigs every time I "flexibly" change my T3s role, then it very very quickly becomes cheaper and easier to simply have multiple ships. In fact people have multiple T3s now because of this

oh I have an idea for that.

remove rig slots from the hull itself, add them to the subsystems instead. perhaps 2 per sub.
increase the rig points accordingly, BUT, restrict rig types to the subsystems. offensive subs can only carry weapon rigs, electronic rigs go to the electronic subs, etc etc, etc,

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Liltha
Lost My Way Enterprises
#373 - 2013-06-11 23:53:49 UTC
Or add a 6th subsystem that contains the rigs themselves and they remain on that subsystem, then you can swap out the rigs when you swap the subsystems without losing them and you could keep sets of rigs according to need.
Typherian
Criterion.
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#374 - 2013-06-12 00:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Typherian
Malcanis wrote:

Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.


Is it just me or does this make malcanis look like a petty idiot that ran out of arguments. Debating PL on how hard it is to kill titans while in an alliance like Init is just sad. Almost as sad as pretending that it was him that nerfed titans and he will nerf them more because he has ~power~. Quit making the CSM look bad malcanis.

oh god I think I just agreed with Grath on something.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#375 - 2013-06-12 00:18:12 UTC
Typherian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.

Is it just me or does this make malcanis look like a petty idiot that ran out of arguments. Debating PL on how hard it is to kill titans while in an alliance like Init is just sad. Almost as sad as pretending that it was him that nerfed titans and he will nerf them more because he has ~power~. Quit making the CSM look bad malcanis.

oh god I think I just agreed with Grath on something.

The insanity that is General Discussion has claimed another victim.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Typherian
Criterion.
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#376 - 2013-06-12 00:20:26 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Typherian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.

Is it just me or does this make malcanis look like a petty idiot that ran out of arguments. Debating PL on how hard it is to kill titans while in an alliance like Init is just sad. Almost as sad as pretending that it was him that nerfed titans and he will nerf them more because he has ~power~. Quit making the CSM look bad malcanis.

oh god I think I just agreed with Grath on something.

The insanity that is General Discussion has claimed another victim.



confirmed. Add beer and I'm about as coherent as a syphilitic monkey with a brain disorder.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2013-06-12 00:23:25 UTC
Everyone has a bad day. I'm pulling for Malcanis's recovery.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#378 - 2013-06-12 00:26:41 UTC
Typherian wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Typherian wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Your tears are precious btw and I'm not done with titans yet.

Is it just me or does this make malcanis look like a petty idiot that ran out of arguments. Debating PL on how hard it is to kill titans while in an alliance like Init is just sad. Almost as sad as pretending that it was him that nerfed titans and he will nerf them more because he has ~power~. Quit making the CSM look bad malcanis.

oh god I think I just agreed with Grath on something.

The insanity that is General Discussion has claimed another victim.

confirmed. Add beer and I'm about as coherent as a syphilitic monkey with a brain disorder.

Beer is ok. If only we were friends enough so that you could join Boat's fleet and shoot TEST structures.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Typherian
Criterion.
NullSechnaya Sholupen
#379 - 2013-06-12 00:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Typherian
I will be sure to have an extra beer in salute next time we engage in glorious internet spaceship combat. o7

Oh and I must admit I love a good boat fleet.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#380 - 2013-06-12 02:15:51 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Kor'el Izia wrote:
You get linear increase in performance for exponential increase in cost

false. you get linear increase in performance with linear decrease in availability. cost is, as tippia said correctly, a by-product of the offer-and-demand market.

if an X-type shield hardener had the same availability as a T1, cost would drop to levels of said T1.


Naah ... If there were equal number of x-type and T1 put on the market (i.e. equal availability before accounting for demand) the X-type would cost more. If there were equal numbers of T1 and x-type available on the market (i.e. after demand has been taken into account) the x-type would still cost more.



depends on how big the supply is. There have been items, over the years, that were extremely highly supplied, wherein the Meta 1 and 2 loot versions were cheaper than the T1 items at Jita. So if the supply was large enough X-types might be cheaper than Tech 1 simply because of the mineral cost attached to T1.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

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