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Jita Population Limit

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#221 - 2013-06-11 20:33:58 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
If you can identify the bots--the Y figure--and botting is not allowed under the EULA, why haven't you guys just banned the bots already? I get that scamming is part of the game (a profession?), but botting and spamming local using a bot is disallowed and ought to result in many juicy bans.
Replied to here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3175100#post3175100
Which is it? Do you guys know who the spambots are or not? Here (quoted link from above), you say you don't know, but below you say that you know how many spambots you have. If you know how many spambots you have--meaning you can identify a spambot over a player--then where is the disconnect from identifying the actual spambots and banning them? "Ok, we know *this* is a player (causing load) and *this* is a bot." << Bingo! Ban the bot.

CCP Explorer wrote:
No, the load would stay the same (because it's traffic related) and we would lower the cap accordingly with the number of spambots that would have gone away.

There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.



They do not know who the bots are or how many there are. What they do know is when security figures it out and bans them, the Jita cap will have to be adjusted down by about the number of bots banned. For example if Security bans 100 bots, then the cap will have to be dropped by about 100 to prevent Jita from entering TiDi.

Im hoping it can be dropped by less than 100, making room for more players. The bots may be causing only a little load, they are causing more than no load.

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CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#222 - 2013-06-11 21:31:21 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
If you can identify the bots--the Y figure--and botting is not allowed under the EULA, why haven't you guys just banned the bots already? I get that scamming is part of the game (a profession?), but botting and spamming local using a bot is disallowed and ought to result in many juicy bans.
Replied to here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3175100#post3175100
Which is it? Do you guys know who the spambots are or not? Here (quoted link from above), you say you don't know, but below you say that you know how many spambots you have. If you know how many spambots you have--meaning you can identify a spambot over a player--then where is the disconnect from identifying the actual spambots and banning them? "Ok, we know *this* is a player (causing load) and *this* is a bot." << Bingo! Ban the bot.

CCP Explorer wrote:
No, the load would stay the same (because it's traffic related) and we would lower the cap accordingly with the number of spambots that would have gone away.

There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
I never said we knew what X and Y are. We know what X+Y is, that's currently 2,050 and it's breaks down into some number of active pilots (X) and some number of inactive / non-load-contributing pilots (Y).

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Obunagawe
#223 - 2013-06-11 21:34:43 UTC

Currently out of the 2050 pilots in Jita, 1,866 are docked in 4-4.
mkint
#224 - 2013-06-11 22:02:32 UTC
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
I dont care if you increase the Jita pop cap to 3000. JUST DO IT.

It's a trade hub for gods sake, it's not PVP grounds.

If it takes 3 seconds to perform an action in Jita I'll take that any day over the fact that I never can get into Jita during primetime.

If you lock people out of Jita you're hindering the player driven world by forcing people to use other trade hubs against their will.

What would happen to jita if no modules could be activated in space? Or, what would happen to jita, if as soon as you jumped in, you were automatically docked? If there was no space in Jita, just station?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#225 - 2013-06-12 00:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Radelix Cisko
mkint wrote:
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
I dont care if you increase the Jita pop cap to 3000. JUST DO IT.

It's a trade hub for gods sake, it's not PVP grounds.

If it takes 3 seconds to perform an action in Jita I'll take that any day over the fact that I never can get into Jita during primetime.

If you lock people out of Jita you're hindering the player driven world by forcing people to use other trade hubs against their will.

What would happen to jita if no modules could be activated in space? Or, what would happen to jita, if as soon as you jumped in, you were automatically docked? If there was no space in Jita, just station?


Then valuable wartargets would be denied the ability to blap me and vice versa. I cannot abide. Exploring this further I prefer that Jita is more like a middle eastern bazaar rather than a mall in Schaumburg, IL, Keeps me on my toes.

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game
Caol Ile
KarmaFleet University
#226 - 2013-06-12 07:10:46 UTC
The easy solution would be to remove the empire superhighways again. Jita is the one and only market hub because no matter where you are in empire Jita is no more than 10-15 jumps away.

If you removed the superhighways I bet we'd see trade spread out more across Jita/Amarr/Rens/Dodixie again, and the problem of everyone dogpiling into Jita would go away.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#227 - 2013-06-12 07:15:03 UTC
Radelix Cisko wrote:
mkint wrote:
Mycool Jahksn wrote:
I dont care if you increase the Jita pop cap to 3000. JUST DO IT.

It's a trade hub for gods sake, it's not PVP grounds.

If it takes 3 seconds to perform an action in Jita I'll take that any day over the fact that I never can get into Jita during primetime.

If you lock people out of Jita you're hindering the player driven world by forcing people to use other trade hubs against their will.

What would happen to jita if no modules could be activated in space? Or, what would happen to jita, if as soon as you jumped in, you were automatically docked? If there was no space in Jita, just station?

Then valuable wartargets would be denied the ability to blap me and vice versa. I cannot abide. Exploring this further I prefer that Jita is more like a middle eastern bazaar rather than a mall in Schaumburg, IL, Keeps me on my toes.

Let's make Jita truly safe.

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Condrad Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-06-12 08:54:27 UTC
I could see a sort of emergent change to Jita as a hub being made, if traders started moving to say Permieter for Minerals, Ores and Raw Materials as a general rule - and that was where most if not all of that resource was bought and sold from then you would have everything else in Jita. Eventually it would be a Market Super Constellation. You could have 3 systems around Jita specializing in a few different market areas. Granted this is a negative point when it comes to convenience, but you can still sit in station and do all your orders from there - which is much better than these ridicious "Go to Amarr" comments.
Gilhelmi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2013-06-12 10:02:21 UTC
Go to Hek, as good of selection as Jita (in my humble opinion).

I do most of my buying/selling there so I might be slightly biased, but then I have never waited at a gate either.Big smile
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#230 - 2013-06-12 10:55:55 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.



So...you repeatedly acknowledge these people as bots...even using the word bot to refer to them half a dozen times....but then dismiss them as non-harmful since they're not contributing a lot to the load, and say there's no reason to get rid of them since you'd just then have to lower the cap an equal amount

The EULA is just a "Unless it taxes the server" thing now, then?

Botting is cool with devs now, as long as it's shitting up Jita local?

And yes, I read https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3175100#post3175100 and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3187547#post3187547 too - but if you want to seriously tell me you can't tell which ones are bots and which aren't, you're boldfaced lying. All the rest of us can figure it out with a fraction of the tools and access that you have.

CCP is, always has been, and sadly always will be soft on RMT and bot bans. The rampant overflowing number of them in Jita local, run without disguise or guile for months and months and months, says the entire player base realizes it.

But I admit I still held a tiny hope that the devs would at least pretend to give lip service to thinking banning bots was a good idea, rather than just saying "Nahhh, then we'd just have to change the cap - and who wants to do that?!"

The more fool, I.
Meytal
Doomheim
#231 - 2013-06-12 11:58:43 UTC
Condrad Antollare wrote:
As much as we all enjoy sitting on the Perimeter gate into Jita, is it not time to raise the Jita population limit?

Chribba keeps a rather interesting tally of the spambots in Jita. If something were done about them, there wouldn't be a problem with Jita.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-06-12 12:02:25 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Condrad Antollare wrote:
As much as we all enjoy sitting on the Perimeter gate into Jita, is it not time to raise the Jita population limit?

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Eve: Yeah, this system is full. Why don't you **** off to somewhere else?

i have read somewhere that Eve Online Universe is one solid place.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
DreznicK
OORt Cloud Research
The OORT Cloud
#233 - 2013-06-12 12:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DreznicK
NVM found the answer buried in this thread
Jin d'SaanGo
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-06-12 12:39:24 UTC
I welcome the Jita population limit. It nicely depicts population / production / business limits we can experience in our real life.

Otherwise we would have just one company producing in one place the goods sold in the one and only city of the planet in one gigantic superstore.
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#235 - 2013-06-12 13:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayrendo Karr
Step 1: Go to Dixie Rens Hek or Amarr
Step 2: Sell your stuff for the same price you would at jita
Step 3: ????
Step 4: PROFIT!!!!

It's virtually impossible to detect spambots as bots, even if CCP knows they are a bot, they might not have evidence enough to ban or kick or whatever.
Murderphache
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2013-06-12 13:54:21 UTC
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
Step 1: Go to Dixie Rens Hek or Amarr
Step 2: Sell your stuff for the same price you would at jita
Step 3: ????
Step 4: PROFIT!!!!

It's virtually impossible to detect spambots as bots, even if CCP knows they are a bot, they might not have evidence enough to ban or kick or whatever.



Are you kidding me? virtually impossible? Chribba alone has gathered enough information to prove it. He also is just an outsider with no special tools to help him other than ones he has created. Give me a break it is painfully obvious when a 'character' sends the exact same message (same spelling and everything no typos) for hours and hours everyday like clockwork every 20-30seconds.

There are alternatives to the issue like other hubs but ffs do not for one minute accept bots because oh well cant do anything about it
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#237 - 2013-06-12 14:16:08 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.



So...you repeatedly acknowledge these people as bots...even using the word bot to refer to them half a dozen times....but then dismiss them as non-harmful since they're not contributing a lot to the load, and say there's no reason to get rid of them since you'd just then have to lower the cap an equal amount

The EULA is just a "Unless it taxes the server" thing now, then?

Botting is cool with devs now, as long as it's shitting up Jita local?

And yes, I read https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3175100#post3175100 and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3187547#post3187547 too - but if you want to seriously tell me you can't tell which ones are bots and which aren't, you're boldfaced lying. All the rest of us can figure it out with a fraction of the tools and access that you have.

CCP is, always has been, and sadly always will be soft on RMT and bot bans. The rampant overflowing number of them in Jita local, run without disguise or guile for months and months and months, says the entire player base realizes it.

But I admit I still held a tiny hope that the devs would at least pretend to give lip service to thinking banning bots was a good idea, rather than just saying "Nahhh, then we'd just have to change the cap - and who wants to do that?!"

The more fool, I.


Just my 2 cents:

Yes, CCP doesn't care much about spam bots (though they HAVE been targeted by ban waves in the past), they see them as low priority ... and you know what? I agree!

(And that is even as a trader, who spends quite a bit of time in Jita.)

Spam bots have almost nothing to do with RMT. You think they make lots of money? They don't.
Mining & Mission bots have vastly more income (but are also more complicated to make, which matters little for even a semi-professinoal RMT setup).

So who are those spam bots? Mostly people who figure out (correctly) that a spam bot can be written with a few very simple scripting tools (or even with the help of some keyboard drivers/macros). They make a bit of a side income (violating the EULA on the way).

So, yes. CCP doesn't care much for investing time to deal with spam bots (though they think they are illegal and do ban some on occasion). And they are right insofar as spam bots have nothing to do with RMT and ISK sellers. CCP has actually been pretty tough on those - compared with other members of the industry we could name & shame.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#238 - 2013-06-12 14:17:53 UTC
Murderphache wrote:
Jayrendo Karr wrote:
Step 1: Go to Dixie Rens Hek or Amarr
Step 2: Sell your stuff for the same price you would at jita
Step 3: ????
Step 4: PROFIT!!!!

It's virtually impossible to detect spambots as bots, even if CCP knows they are a bot, they might not have evidence enough to ban or kick or whatever.



Are you kidding me? virtually impossible? Chribba alone has gathered enough information to prove it. He also is just an outsider with no special tools to help him other than ones he has created. Give me a break it is painfully obvious when a 'character' sends the exact same message (same spelling and everything no typos) for hours and hours everyday like clockwork every 20-30seconds.

There are alternatives to the issue like other hubs but ffs do not for one minute accept bots because oh well cant do anything about it

@Jayrendo, like mentioned, impossible to detect, hardly. As for CCP taking actions, I hope you realize we have no legal say in any action they take right? You accepted the EULA which pretty much removes any right you may think you have regarding them banning you. They are free to do whatever they like for any reason without having to explain themselves - although banning someone without reason or communicating it may not be the best way to handle customers PR wise.

( PS http://eve-files.com/chribba/jita2012/ )

/c

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Rixiu
PonyTek
#239 - 2013-06-12 14:29:53 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.



So...you repeatedly acknowledge these people as bots...even using the word bot to refer to them half a dozen times....but then dismiss them as non-harmful since they're not contributing a lot to the load, and say there's no reason to get rid of them since you'd just then have to lower the cap an equal amount

The EULA is just a "Unless it taxes the server" thing now, then?

Botting is cool with devs now, as long as it's shitting up Jita local?

And yes, I read https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3175100#post3175100 and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3187547#post3187547 too - but if you want to seriously tell me you can't tell which ones are bots and which aren't, you're boldfaced lying. All the rest of us can figure it out with a fraction of the tools and access that you have.

CCP is, always has been, and sadly always will be soft on RMT and bot bans. The rampant overflowing number of them in Jita local, run without disguise or guile for months and months and months, says the entire player base realizes it.

But I admit I still held a tiny hope that the devs would at least pretend to give lip service to thinking banning bots was a good idea, rather than just saying "Nahhh, then we'd just have to change the cap - and who wants to do that?!"

The more fool, I.


You was never any good at math were you? X and Y are unknown variables, they know that X+Y=2070 which is also the cap of Jita (or maybe it was 2170). Had they been known he would have said 2000+70=2070. X and Y are real numbers that's why he's refering to them as such but they are unknown. You make it sound as if CCP know how many spambots there are and choose to ignore them, that's not what he said. How hard they are to find and so on is another question but performance wise it seem to be a non issue since banning 50 bots would simply result in CCP having to lower the pop cap to 2020 instead of 2070.
Rammix
TheMurk
#240 - 2013-06-12 15:14:21 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Robus Muvila wrote:
Seriously if I was a game dev it's the threads like this that would make me want to shave my head and take to the rooftops. Here are the cliffnotes for the traders that have worked themselves into a frenzy

  • Jita is a near permanently reinforced that is already stretched to capacity.
  • Spambots are not contributing to the problem
  • Spambots are not interfering with the population cap
  • The only things doing this is the intensely heavy traffic of ships in flight in space

Is it really so bad to finally admit that the heart of the economy of a whole galaxy has outgrown one starsystem? Surely that is a positive reflection on the sheer juggernaut capitalism that you traders and industrialists drive.
Indeed, no one thing is going to "fix" Jita, multiple things will be needed. We are not going to throw hardware at the problem since there really isn't any better / more suitable hardware on the market and as Tippia has repeatedly explained in this thread then it's not a sustainable solution. That being said, if and when there is better hardware available we will probably buy it, because who doesn't like shiny new hardware... Big smile

In the meantime we are working on "Brain in a Box" (details explained by Tippia in this thread) that is primarily meant for coordinated fleet fight jump-ins but will greatly benefit Jita, and you can grow Amarr as an alternative to Jita.

I tweeted recently about Amarr's new hardware https://twitter.com/erlendur/status/340791130104942593 and about how the population of Amarr has grown in recent months https://twitter.com/erlendur/status/343517649927536643 . It had been 500-600 for a long while but is now peaking around 1000. Chribba replied https://twitter.com/ChribbaVeldspar/status/343637496351035392 reminiscing how it used to be only 40-50 (he probably walked a mile in the snow to his Veldnaught at the time). Amarr is still far behind Jita in terms of market volume but it's also significantly ahead of all others.


Maybe there is some way to change eve universe from a pile of solar systems into something less "sharded" - to be more correct, I mean breaking the universe into pieces smaller than solar systems. Like several sectors per system. Above load distribution it could also allow interstellar warp-like travel without usage of gates - for some distant future.

Talking about Jita, such sector-based division of the system would put different gates in different sectors thus distributing some load. It would also mean that people can enter the system; and if the jita 4-4 station's sector is overloaded they can't warp to it but they still can hide on a spot or use another station. And it means division of overall trading traffic between 2 or more stations within the same system.

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