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EVE decade 2 tactics: buy PLEX, buy toon, hire mercs, pay to win
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2013-06-11 18:47:01 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:

This is such utter bullshit. There are new guys in my corp owning faction frigs and what not in their meta 1-3 fit Atrons.
Don't listen to this guy. Our guys are horrible and they lose too many T1 frigs to OP 100 million isk faction frigs. I have tried to get them into Comet and then Daredevils, but they can't afford it because FW LP store has gone down the toilet.

*sigh* Is there nothing that can halt the advance of Snake-Set implanted nano-kitey drams?!! Eve is so broken!

Mirana Niranne
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2013-06-11 19:01:44 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:

This is such utter bullshit. There are new guys in my corp owning faction frigs and what not in their meta 1-3 fit Atrons.
Don't listen to this guy. Our guys are horrible and they lose too many T1 frigs to OP 100 million isk faction frigs. I have tried to get them into Comet and then Daredevils, but they can't afford it because FW LP store has gone down the toilet.

*sigh* Is there nothing that can halt the advance of Snake-Set implanted nano-kitey drams?!! Eve is so broken!


Only if you can't shoot lasers from your eyes. I have to take off my shades to PvP.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#23 - 2013-06-12 05:14:44 UTC
Meditril wrote:
You naturally could use them for bash a hub or POS here or there... but they work as pirate magnet... so expect every pirate and his dog to come and fight you whenever your bring something like this out. You will probably lose it faster then you expect

Low sec titan with guns?
Bashing i-hubs?


You mad or just not know what titans should do in low sec.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-06-12 06:17:04 UTC
I have met new players that buy old characters.

They die horribly every time.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-06-12 08:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Froggy Storm
I must agree with Mr Kane here. Always always always bet on stupid. The 3m skill guy spending his last isk for that new drake is just as dead as the fellow spending $30usd to buy a 30m so pilot to sit in the same drake.

Fleet fights not withstanding, the idea that the ship or sp makes the fight is just a lazy argument. If the complaint is OGB then there is no reason any one can't have one.

So often people complain about spending "real" currency for isk but forget that the door swings both ways. For what that person worked at his/her real job for you can do without leaving your computer. In fact given the wage disparity across most of the developed world I bet that the guy doing wh sites or what ever pulls in better "imaginary" wages than a lot of people if they put in a 8 or 12 hr day.

So to the op go make some cash/isk and buy that booster super or what ever it is you got killed by or upset over.

TL:DR: Isk isn't real money but you can spend it in game as if it was just like your opponent. If you think it is pay to win go mine a ton of isk in your preferred way and see how far it gets you buying whatever "I win" you want to get killed in.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#26 - 2013-06-12 09:47:29 UTC
Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. And most of the time, you even get a juicy pod with it !

And then, the tears : "how is it I can't kill you after spending all this money ! This game is broken !"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-06-12 12:56:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec. And most of the time, you even get a juicy pod with it !

And then, the tears : "how is it I can't kill you after spending all this money ! This game is broken !"

true

there is nothing better than killing n00b and see: you only won because he IS n00b. These kills show you one more time how good you are Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#28 - 2013-06-12 22:12:17 UTC
there are no supers in w-space. he he he.
Ordellus
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-06-13 00:19:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec.


See that logic holds as long as you don't think about it.

Claiming players that spend money on ships and what-not don't have a huge advantage based on the fact that you fooled a noob is just silly.

Although I'm sure pretending you proved yourself is a nice feeling...
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2013-06-13 01:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Froggy Storm
Ordellus wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sometimes, I think it should be called pay2lose, because there's nothing more juicy than a noob in a tengu in lowsec.


See that logic holds as long as you don't think about it.

Claiming players that spend money on ships and what-not don't have a huge advantage based on the fact that you fooled a noob is just silly.

Although I'm sure pretending you proved yourself is a nice feeling...


To the contrary this is the heart of the debate. The only "advantage" cited is the ability to cut down on the time to "get stuff". Be it a complaint of running a shiney that was paid for with plex or buying a character to jump into a tengu. At the end of the day the player behind the computer is the same person and has the precise same skill level. Thus time invested is all that has been circumvented.

Or do you mean to say a 8 year bittervet with no idea how to play "deserves" to win when outplayed by a 1 year well rounded player? The skill of the human being is far and away the biggest (perhaps only) real critical factor involved in advantage in eve.

The fact that blobs exist is proof of that. The one and only way to mitigate poor players is to bury the field in their welped corpses. Such that you just need one guy with clue one to say "pick that red square and hit F1".
Verra Keyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-06-13 02:00:50 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I avoid player null at all costs, Im not afraid of the players in fact once past chokes its safer than low. I avoid it because theres no place to refit, resupply, sell or do anything that would make it worthwhile to go out there.

The design of null doesnt attract people there because to operate out of alliance in null is a massive PITA.



I will agree with this. How could it be improved? I don't know.
Ordellus
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-06-14 15:24:17 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:

To the contrary this is the heart of the debate. The only "advantage" cited is the ability to cut down on the time to "get stuff".


That would indeed be the trifling thing you make it out to be if it wasn't a huge deal, since progress = time in eve. Buying isk gives payers better ships and modules, and reduces the loss of a loss. The advantage isn't illusionary, it happens the second they buy that plex.

Froggy Storm wrote:

do you mean to say a 8 year bittervet with no idea how to play "deserves" to win when outplayed by a 1 year well rounded player? The skill of the human being is far and away the biggest (perhaps only) real critical factor involved in advantage in eve.


Nope I mean to say that EVE have virtually nothing to do with actual player skill at fighting, but is actually all about the ship and modules. Put anyone into a stock rookie ship and force them to fight to the death with a well fit pvp tech 2 frigate.... rookie ship loses every time.

Froggy Storm wrote:
The fact that blobs exist is proof of that.


And the only thing blobs prove is that players would prefer to overwhelm anonymous red dots to "zomg win pew pew killmailz" instead of having heartpounding, skill-testing, real PVP....

But you are obviously someone that would rather pay for their isk and ships as opposed to earn them..... so we probably aren't going to agree on the "Paying real cash for everything I have in eve is cheating" debate.... so agree to disagree, or respond to stroke your epeen. Up to you.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#33 - 2013-06-14 15:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Ordellus wrote:
Nope I mean to say that EVE have virtually nothing to do with actual player skill at fighting, but is actually all about the ship and modules. Put anyone into a stock rookie ship and force them to fight to the death with a well fit pvp tech 2 frigate.... rookie ship loses every time.
Why did you use a "stock rookie ship" in your example instead of a T1 ship? (because in that case player skill DOES matter, and your thesis falls apart)
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#34 - 2013-06-14 16:51:42 UTC
Holy ****, really?

Ordellus wrote:

Nope I mean to say that EVE have virtually nothing to do with actual player skill at fighting, but is actually all about the ship and modules. Put anyone into a stock rookie ship and force them to fight to the death with a well fit pvp tech 2 frigate.... rookie ship loses every time.

nom nom
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#35 - 2013-06-14 18:42:15 UTC
Getting kills in a velator used to be a rite of passage until they changed them.

It's not quite as fun any more.
Ordellus
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-06-14 18:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ordellus
X Gallentius wrote:
Why did you use a "stock rookie ship" in your example instead of a T1 ship? (because in that case player skill DOES matter, and your thesis falls apart)


B/c the whole "ships and modules don't matter in a fight" argument is ********, and by using extremes you make it impossible to ignore the point.

New premise
1) two pilots with identically spent SP
2) pilots have equal knowledge
3)ships are well fit for pvp
4) First ship is entirely meta 1
5) Second ship is entirely tech 2
Outcome -> expensive stuff wins again.

In the event that the battleground is fielded by people who have actually played the game before... cash makes you win.

We done pretending that all the PVPers spending billions on ships aren't doing it b/c the expensive stuff gives them an advantage?

Or all you all going to keep arguing the facade?

P.S. Also seems that you missed the part where I specified "Put Anyone in a rookie ship".... b/c hate you admit but no amount of "player skill" is going to save some from being out ISKed
Ordellus
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-06-14 18:52:27 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Getting kills in a velator used to be a rite of passage until they changed them.


Ordellus wrote:
And the only thing blobs prove is that players would prefer to overwhelm anonymous red dots to "zomg win pew pew killmailz" instead of having heartpounding, skill-testing, real PVP....
James 420
EVE Corporation 98188875
#38 - 2013-06-14 19:36:46 UTC
I think you are looking for the wrong game, eve pvp isn't "balanced" and will never be, eve is reliant on numbers and players willing to have fair fights.
Eve is also pay2win depending on what you consider "winning" in a "sandbox" game, it's also why eve is such a niche game winning is so "meta" and most of the fun come from outside of the game/player interactions.
Is eve good entertainment? Sure! Is eve a decent competitive game? Hell no ! Is it changing? Maybe™

Proud enforcer of 420 BLAZE IT
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#39 - 2013-06-14 19:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Ordellus wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Why did you use a "stock rookie ship" in your example instead of a T1 ship? (because in that case player skill DOES matter, and your thesis falls apart)


B/c the whole "ships and modules don't matter in a fight" argument is ********, and by using extremes you make it impossible to ignore the point.

New premise
1) two pilots with identically spent SP
2) pilots have equal knowledge
3)ships are well fit for pvp
4) First ship is entirely meta 1
5) Second ship is entirely tech 2
Outcome -> expensive stuff wins again.

In the event that the battleground is fielded by people who have actually played the game before... cash makes you win.

We done pretending that all the PVPers spending billions on ships aren't doing it b/c the expensive stuff gives them an advantage?

Or all you all going to keep arguing the facade?
Some people practice what they preach.

Sometimes the 1.5 million isk ship wins over the T2 fit ship.http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17435252 Been flying these cheap atrons for months because they work.

Doesn't really matter all that much whether the opponent is T1, meta, or T2 fit. If it's the same ship with the same fitting philosophy, then T2 matters, but if you are going after a dissimilar target, then it's about appropriate fitting and piloting skill.

Quote:
P.S. Also seems that you missed the part where I specified "Put Anyone in a rookie ship".... b/c hate you admit but no amount of "player skill" is going to save some from being out ISKed
It's a combination of skill+fittings+knowledge+ a host of other things.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2013-06-14 20:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
In before the "You are a high sp player that's why you won":

Here's a post from one of our "noobs" in corp doing the same thing to another "well-fit loot piñata"

Jeann Valjean wrote:

I have 5m SP and decided to deplex 1 or 2 sites in a Derptron before bed to help militia out. and within 2 minutes of logging in this happened:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18019064

ISK means nothing. Keep up the gud fites.

& long live the Derptron.

Edit: to be clear I'm not saying I'm that good... I'm saying he was that bad, and we should always take fights that we think look iffy because you may be surprised.