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** HILMAR - Remove the CSM Now...**

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Velicitia
XS Tech
#281 - 2011-11-06 20:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Temba Ronin wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:


Temba Ronin wrote:
perhaps I foolishly assumed that before running for the CSM every candidate would have read what it meant to be a member of the CSM and made the personal choice to operate under that definition ..... abusing the role of being a member of the CSM to reward your political supporters hurts the greater player base.

Do you have an example of this abuse of power?

Temba Ronin wrote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

Wait a minute. Are you saying that what Mittani is doing, i.e. buying PLEX to keep his account running, is against the EULA/TOS? And that the entire playerbase is going to do exactly the same things Mittani is doing?

I'm hoping you know where the PLEX is coming from...


Business 101
customer---> company = maximum profits
customer----> middleman-----> company =less potential profits unless volume increases to offset loss

So you are telling me CCP has explained their confidential revenue stream to you and after your expert analysis you have come to the conclusion a reduction in the direct subscriber base would in no way threaten their financial stability which would be very bad for the greater player base. I am just a subscriber/ player clearly I don't have the access you MUST have.


OK, taking your Business 101...

Customer --> company = Player buys game time directly from CCP at ~ $10 per month (using a year sub). This is either a breakeven point for CCP, or they're still profiting.

Customer --> Middleman --> Company = um ... plex?

You do realise that there is a "Customer --> company" relationship between CCP and shatteredcrystal/battleclinic/etc, right?

Let's say CCP is selling the GTC at say $30 per (2x $15 PLEX per GTC), which Battleclinic is selling at about $35 to the consumer... CCP is making more off PLEX than they are subs (up to $10 per month, since each GTC can cover 2 accounts) ... and with the PLEX price going through the roof lately, there may very soon be an influx to CCP as people start seeing "buy GTC, convert to PLEX, sell for ISK" as a viable solution...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2011-11-06 21:04:49 UTC
Add to that the fact that there are quite a few people who are doing this buy a plex thing who wouldn't otherwise be playing, so overall I would assume CCP is coming out ahead. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2011-11-06 21:46:55 UTC
"Remove the CSM because Mittani pays for his account(s) with plex."

This thread is done.
Temba Ronin
#284 - 2011-11-06 22:15:59 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
"Remove the CSM because Mittani pays for his account(s) with plex."

This thread is done.


Elise DarkStar #15Posted: 2011.09.15 03:03 | Report
"I've got far more than 25b.

You must think very little of your marks here if you hope that such a weak deflection would work. Probably best to just pipe down or you'll ruin any chance at coming away with a noteworthy scam haul.

I retract my goodwishes."

so because you have a lot of isk you get to decide when a thread is done ...... Perfect example of a whiny vet with a built up sense of entitlement and authority..... sorry most of the conversation went over your head but your comments were mildly entertaining nonetheless.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2011-11-06 22:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Huh?

Edit: Holy mother of god, did you really, unironically, go back to one of the very first posts a char made, on a completely different subject, to "own" him?

That's, uh... new.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#286 - 2011-11-06 22:26:38 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:


Temba Ronin wrote:
perhaps I foolishly assumed that before running for the CSM every candidate would have read what it meant to be a member of the CSM and made the personal choice to operate under that definition ..... abusing the role of being a member of the CSM to reward your political supporters hurts the greater player base.

Do you have an example of this abuse of power?

Temba Ronin wrote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

Wait a minute. Are you saying that what Mittani is doing, i.e. buying PLEX to keep his account running, is against the EULA/TOS? And that the entire playerbase is going to do exactly the same things Mittani is doing?

I'm hoping you know where the PLEX is coming from...


Business 101
customer---> company = maximum profits
customer----> middleman-----> company =less potential profits unless volume increases to offset loss

So you are telling me CCP has explained their confidential revenue stream to you and after your expert analysis you have come to the conclusion a reduction in the direct subscriber base would in no way threaten their financial stability which would be very bad for the greater player base. I am just a subscriber/ player clearly I don't have the access you MUST have.


OK, taking your Business 101...

Customer --> company = Player buys game time directly from CCP at ~ $10 per month (using a year sub). This is either a breakeven point for CCP, or they're still profiting.

Customer --> Middleman --> Company = um ... plex?

You do realise that there is a "Customer --> company" relationship between CCP and shatteredcrystal/battleclinic/etc, right?

Let's say CCP is selling the GTC at say $30 per (2x $15 PLEX per GTC), which Battleclinic is selling at about $35 to the consumer... CCP is making more off PLEX than they are subs (up to $10 per month, since each GTC can cover 2 accounts) ... and with the PLEX price going through the roof lately, there may very soon be an influx to CCP as people start seeing "buy GTC, convert to PLEX, sell for ISK" as a viable solution...

Unless you have facts to support the figures you are arbitrarily plugging in you really don't know do you? So how does that trump the Business 101 model i posted? It doesn't.

Have none of you ever had a debate where you had to support your position with facts instead of "My opinion is better then your opinion"? Come on upgrade your intellectual game to make this at least challenging.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2011-11-06 22:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Temba Ronin wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Let's say CCP is selling the GTC at say $30 per (2x $15 PLEX per GTC), which Battleclinic is selling at about $35 to the consumer... CCP is making more off PLEX than they are subs (up to $10 per month, since each GTC can cover 2 accounts) ... and with the PLEX price going through the roof lately, there may very soon be an influx to CCP as people start seeing "buy GTC, convert to PLEX, sell for ISK" as a viable solution...

Unless you have facts to support the figures you are arbitrarily plugging in you really don't know do you? So how does that trump the Business 101 model i posted? It doesn't.

What's arbitrary about them? The $30 figure? The "say" bit means it's a guesstimate, but it makes sense that CCP is selling a GTC at the same price as 2 months' worth of subscription (assuming monthly subscription), as it yields 2 PLEX. Shatteredcrystal does indeed sell GTCs at $35:

http://www.shatteredcrystal.com/index.php/eve_online

The $10 pr month is a bit off, the actual figure is $8, as if you buy a yearly subscription you pay $11/month:

https://secure.eveonline.com/AddGametime/ (needs a login, can't be arsed to look for a non-login page).

Temba Ronin wrote:
Have none of you ever had a debate where you had to support your position with facts instead of "My opinion is better then your opinion"? Come on upgrade your intellectual game to make this at least challenging.

You might want to pipe down a bit on the personal insults, what with you actually going 13 pages back on elise darkstar's posting history just to find a quote about having more than 25b.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2011-11-06 22:39:41 UTC
I have more than 120b, actually. So I can pretty much dictate everything that happens on this forum. I'm basically an overmod.
Temba Ronin
#289 - 2011-11-06 22:43:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

You might want to pipe down a bit on the personal insults, what with you actually going 13 pages back on elise darkstar's posting history just to find a quote about having more than 25b.[/quote]

Zim I concede your point here ...... I at times have too sharp a pen .... I admit to suffering fools poorly ..... it is because i have no problem admitting when i have been proven wrong or incorrect and it is an extreme annoyance when i encounter others incapable of growth and intellectual honesty.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2011-11-06 22:47:33 UTC
So what did Elise do wrong then? I don't see anything which is illogical or inherently wrong in what he posted.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#291 - 2011-11-06 22:58:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Huh?

Edit: Holy mother of god, did you really, unironically, go back to one of the very first posts a char made, on a completely different subject, to "own" him?

That's, uh... new.

Um ...... yeah I am a relentless researcher ........ because i am of the opinion facts more often then not win the day. Being armed with the best factual knowledge base can give an advantage to the person possessing that greater resource in my opinion.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2011-11-06 23:00:11 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Um ...... yeah I am a relentless researcher ........ because i am of the opinion facts more often then not win the day. Being armed with the best factual knowledge base can give an advantage to the person possessing that greater resource in my opinion.

Problem is, that quote had absolutely nothing to do with what you were responding to. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nuh-uh.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#293 - 2011-11-06 23:03:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
Lord Zim wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Um ...... yeah I am a relentless researcher ........ because i am of the opinion facts more often then not win the day. Being armed with the best factual knowledge base can give an advantage to the person possessing that greater resource in my opinion.

Problem is, that quote had absolutely nothing to do with what you were responding to. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nuh-uh.

Kinda like your argument about the ingame activities of the CSM members when I was commenting on the activities of the CSM as the CSM.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2011-11-06 23:12:39 UTC
Oh, really? So when you're saying things like this (I'm leaving the weak insult out of it):

Temba Ronin wrote:
If you can't differentiate between a CSM saying he advocates for griefing and doing the actual griefing you are correct

you aren't talking about how the CSM members behave or what they say when they're communicating with CCP (which we aren't really privy to, so I've at least no idea what they actually do/say there) vs how the CSM members behave when playing the game or communicating their own opinions on forums?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#295 - 2011-11-06 23:21:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, really? So when you're saying things like this (I'm leaving the weak insult out of it):

Temba Ronin wrote:
If you can't differentiate between a CSM saying he advocates for griefing and doing the actual griefing you are correct

you aren't talking about how the CSM members behave or what they say when they're communicating with CCP (which we aren't really privy to, so I've at least no idea what they actually do/say there) vs how the CSM members behave when playing the game or communicating their own opinions on forums?

Of course I am not talking about stuff I am not privy to ...... but I have watched the videos of Our CSM Chairman talking with CCP .... I have watched the videos of our Chairman of the CSM being interviewed .... i have read some not all of the reports and personal descriptions of how members of CSM6 have conducted themselves in meetings with CCP(written by those members of CSM6 who were in fact present at those meetings) which by the way i strongly suggest to anyone who wants to contribute to a lively debate about the effectiveness or focus of the CSM should take the time to do so they might also be armed with FACTS they can be privy to.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Temba Ronin
#296 - 2011-11-06 23:36:39 UTC
Zim can you educate me on why super caps seem to be despised by many in Null? Also I was intrigued by your comments about making Sov battles more readily available to small fleet actions that you made in The Mittani's thread. I would appreciate your insight.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2011-11-07 00:08:35 UTC
Supercaps are despised, at least by me, because they're overly expensive, overly powerful and versatile (at least for now, let's see after they're hit by the nerfbat), needs SOV to be built and as such can be hard for smaller alliances to get hold of even if they should have enough isk, is difficult to counter except for by either having more supercaps or by breaking the will of the supercap pilots by running welpfleet against it (and if they run a proper support fleet, that option might go out the window as well, and we're stuck with "more supercaps"), and are a symptom of the fucktastic SOV system with its gajillion EHP structures.

As to small fleet actions, think how it works in other strategy games, with an actual line, attacks, counterattacks, guessing where the main push is and what is just a diversion, how many to put in which system as a defence force etc. Today's SOV system doesn't exactly give much room for diversions, feints etc, because you either go all the way with a system, or all your progress is reset (unless the defending alliance is incompetent and forgets to rep whatever damage you did).

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#298 - 2011-11-07 00:22:14 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Supercaps are despised, at least by me, because they're overly expensive, overly powerful and versatile (at least for now, let's see after they're hit by the nerfbat), needs SOV to be built and as such can be hard for smaller alliances to get hold of even if they should have enough isk, is difficult to counter except for by either having more supercaps or by breaking the will of the supercap pilots by running welpfleet against it (and if they run a proper support fleet, that option might go out the window as well, and we're stuck with "more supercaps"), and are a symptom of the fucktastic SOV system with its gajillion EHP structures.

As to small fleet actions, think how it works in other strategy games, with an actual line, attacks, counterattacks, guessing where the main push is and what is just a diversion, how many to put in which system as a defence force etc. Today's SOV system doesn't exactly give much room for diversions, feints etc, because you either go all the way with a system, or all your progress is reset (unless the defending alliance is incompetent and forgets to rep whatever damage you did).

I think i'd like to participate in the type of small fleet actions you describe here ..... it could be an ice breaker for newer smaller Alliances to "earn" acceptance into a larger power block. Sadly i think CCP is completely sold on the thousands of ships versus thousand of ships in one battle concept. I think thousands of ships in hundreds of battles would make strategy tactics and initiative more valuable components. It also allows for stealth and deception which i think would enhance the combat experience for more players.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Ms Twitch
Brittas Empire
Pandemic Horde
#299 - 2011-11-07 02:28:12 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
Quote:

Hilmar Pétursson: The CSM has been under constant evolution based on what's going on in the current environment, what's going on with CCP and Eve, who's on the Council and all that. The CSM has helped greatly through the years in getting feedback for aspects of the game.

But some of my concerns right now relate to whether the CSM is maybe focused on a particular aspect of the game and I'm starting to get feedback from players that they worry the CSM is too pre-occupied by a certain playstyle. That might mean we may need to change the structure, but definitely the CSM has worked as a feedback tool greatly throughout the years. We will have them over at the end of the year, after everything that's gone on, and we will have a chance to talk about that. We'll just see where we are and take it from there.


Too true, the CSM is all wrong at the moment. The problem is letting any goons in there, especially letting Mittani in as chair, and vile rat and other nullsec powermad idiots, big big mistake. Hilmar, if your removing some of your own people. Then remove the CSM, its not working and hasnt really worked. Now you just got CSM members trying to f**k over other CSM members, corruption and everything else. Just get rid of it, it sort of served its purpose.

Yes listen to the WHOLE community, but you also got to keep true to yourselves and make the decisions too. You cant keep pandering to the bitter vets, eve needs to move on. You have to start listening also ( and im a vet btw) to how new players find the game. These people are eves future, and i think I huge focus should be on that. Its these people you want to get excited about the game, the next generation so to speak. These are the people you want to shout about eve to other new players, not bitter vets, who only say, this is eve dont like it get lost attitude. Thats ALL WRONG. New players will not come to a game full of idiots. They just wont. So listen to the vets, but listen to new players too. The problem with CSM its full of idiot vets, some out to ruin the game (so why are they in there). Big mistake, remove the CSM now, before these idiots ruin the game entirely.
You are pretty much having activists running the CSM, its not the word of the entire playerbase. The only people who read Assembly Hall are the bitter vets, squabbling like children. You need to find away to interact more with the general playerbase as a whole.

You know what the issues are now, you know what your mistakes are and you know where you want to be, so basically just get on with it!

STAY ON TOPIC - I WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM REPORTING TROLLS Smile


The CSM is a democratically elected council, it's up to the people (the voter) to choose who we want to represent us, if we elect a power hungry dictator then we learn and don't vote him or her back in next election. Any attempt to restrict who we can have in would imped the democratic process (the purpose) of the CSM.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2011-11-07 03:56:01 UTC
Ms Twitch wrote:
Any attempt to restrict who we can have in would imped the democratic process (the purpose) of the CSM.

I have a feeling the OP understands this and is fine with it.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.