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What are good armor tanked ships for sleeper sites?
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So Brave
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-06-10 23:07:15 UTC
Hey guys! I'm pretty new to wormholes, and I recently joined a corp that just moved into a c4. Basically, they're telling me that they want to fly armor ships.

From what I've been reading, Tengu is hands down the best pve wormhole ship right now. However, from my understanding, the tengu itself, and the ships leading to it (mainly the drake) are usually shield tanked.

As for the other t3 ships, I understand that the Proteus is good for pvp, Loki is for c5-c6 wormholes as a utility ship and the Legion is pretty much just all around bad?

So basically my question is, do any of you also run armor tanked ships for c4 and below wormholes, and if so, what ships do you use? Thanks!
TheNewestTwin
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#2 - 2013-06-10 23:56:28 UTC
So Brave wrote:
Hey guys! I'm pretty new to wormholes, and I recently joined a corp that just moved into a c4. Basically, they're telling me that they want to fly armor ships.

From what I've been reading, Tengu is hands down the best pve wormhole ship right now. However, from my understanding, the tengu itself, and the ships leading to it (mainly the drake) are usually shield tanked.

As for the other t3 ships, I understand that the Proteus is good for pvp, Loki is for c5-c6 wormholes as a utility ship and the Legion is pretty much just all around bad?

So basically my question is, do any of you also run armor tanked ships for c4 and below wormholes, and if so, what ships do you use? Thanks!



Legion is actually pretty good for sleeper sites. Just take a look at this fit for example: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/25568-Legion-Legion-C3-Sleepers.html

Ask around in your corp what they are flying and what the composition of these fleets will be like, I am sure they can help you out.

-TNT
Elle Lau
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#3 - 2013-06-11 02:48:35 UTC
Each ship within this game has a purpose in each and every different situation.

Sure Legions are not the best in PVP or for running C5-C6 sleeper sites but they're by no means bad.

And in your case of running lower class sites using armor ships they're probably the best for the job. A handful of Legions with a couple of Guardians would be the best course of action.

If you're not sure about this you could try out the poor mans Legion aka Omen Navy Issue.
So Brave
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-06-11 03:04:15 UTC
Thanks for the advice. Do you know how an Omen Navy Issue compares to the equivalent Caldari ship? Or how a Harbinger compares to a Drake?
Elle Lau
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#5 - 2013-06-11 03:44:27 UTC
Well as I mentioned they have their own purpose. There is no equivalent Caldari ship that can be used for your express purpose.

The Omen Navy Issue will be used in your armor gangs along side Guardians. There is no Caldari cruiser that can do that and help out with sites because they're mainly shield tanked ships.

Again with the Harbinger vs Drake. Armor vs Shield. Different purposes altogether.

The reason I suggested the Omen Navy Issue in this case is because it can be used to good effect in an armor gang and is pretty cheap to fit and easy to train in to.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#6 - 2013-06-11 03:52:59 UTC
Battleships are also an option for C4/3 WHs and armor tanked RR BS gangs are reasonably popular. If you're using Guardians honestly anything with decent EHP and resists can join in doing sites. If you're local tanking you'll need a T3 for C3s, and a BC for C2/1. C4s are very difficult to local tank and most of the time it's run with RR or logistics.
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#7 - 2013-06-11 07:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriana Nolen
unless the C4 is wolf rayet, damn near no one armor tanks for C4 sites. Shield Gank fit + RR is the way to go.

Edit: on caldari ships, unless it's a tengu/chimera/basi. There's something else better than it for WH's that can shield tank for PVE.
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#8 - 2013-06-11 07:40:02 UTC
Dominix is good for RR armor tank work. Just not as good as a shield version.
Le'Mon Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-06-11 15:49:49 UTC
Remote repair laser Legion. I've run with some recently, and they're tough nuts to crack.

Can you hear them? They are calling to us. It is beautiful. http://thegreattichim.wordpress.com/
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#10 - 2013-06-12 08:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
TheNewestTwin wrote:


Legion is actually pretty good for sleeper sites. Just take a look at this fit for example: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/25568-Legion-Legion-C3-Sleepers.html



Legions are great for C3s and you don't really need a bling setup for all but the hardest sites (1 of the Relic and Data sites)

This is the Legion is use and its great for the price.

[Legion, WH]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Energized Thermic Membrane
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Cap Recharger II
Large Capacitor Battery II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Anti-EM Pump II

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



I have also used this Abso for Anomalies but its not as good as a legion.


[Absolution, WH]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Corpum C-Type Medium Nosferatu

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x5

I am assuming that like me you will have a scanning alt or some one in your gang will. (some one has to sit on the hole, might as well be a cloaky scanner. )

Also if you have logi then drop the reps and related Cap/Rigs mods and add more DPS a bit more buffer.
Resilan Bearcat
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-06-12 12:03:16 UTC
So Brave wrote:
Hey guys! I'm pretty new to wormholes, and I recently joined a corp that just moved into a c4. Basically, they're telling me that they want to fly armor ships.

From what I've been reading, Tengu is hands down the best pve wormhole ship right now. However, from my understanding, the tengu itself, and the ships leading to it (mainly the drake) are usually shield tanked.

As for the other t3 ships, I understand that the Proteus is good for pvp, Loki is for c5-c6 wormholes as a utility ship and the Legion is pretty much just all around bad?

So basically my question is, do any of you also run armor tanked ships for c4 and below wormholes, and if so, what ships do you use? Thanks!




You can use Dominix for DPS with sentry drones and a Guardian to provide reps. When we lived in a c2 with a c4 static, we used Rattlesnakes with a Basilisk for reps. Sentry drones are by far the most efficient weapon platform for running C4 sites since you can put out significant DPS at 120km.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-06-12 12:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Resilan Bearcat wrote:


You can use Dominix for DPS with sentry drones and a Guardian to provide reps. When we lived in a c2 with a c4 static, we used Rattlesnakes with a Basilisk for reps. Sentry drones are by far the most efficient weapon platform for running C4 sites since you can put out significant DPS at 120km.


In c2 & c3 territory, if you can field two ships one being a domi and the other a logi, do yourself a favor. Fly 2 rr domis and finish the site twice as fast.

As for being the most efficient method for C4's. IDK. 2 Tengus make you 200mil/hr/pilot. And I'm pretty sure you require a minimum of 3 rr domis in a c4. While the 3 domis may clear the site faster, but I'm not sure its more efficient. I could be wrong. Depends how quickly you're able to clear the sites with 3 rr domis w/ skilled pilots. If you have a time to complete let me know. Would love to do some math on that.

Since the missile nerf, Tengus aren't suffering as much as people might believe in C4 territory.

Don't ban me, bro!
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#13 - 2013-06-12 13:09:53 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
TheNewestTwin wrote:


Legion is actually pretty good for sleeper sites. Just take a look at this fit for example: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/25568-Legion-Legion-C3-Sleepers.html



Legions are great for C3s and you don't really need a bling setup for all but the hardest sites (1 of the Relic and Data sites)

This is the Legion is use and its great for the price.

[Legion, WH]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Energized Thermic Membrane
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Cap Recharger II
Large Capacitor Battery II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Anti-EM Pump II

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



Just a minor nitpick, putting the pimp into your rigs isn't efficient as you can get a similar tank by putting the money into your reps instead for cheaper, it also means theres less sunk cost as it's easy to just unfit your reps and sell them if you want to change the fit/sell the ship.

In fact for the amount of money you have in this you can switch one rep to a Shadow Serpentis Rep, the other to a Centum C-Type Rep, use 2 T1 auxiliary nano pumps, retain similar tank stats (with slightly less capacitor stability) but have an extra rig slot to play with, I'd use a T2 Locus Coordinator bringing your range up to 40km. All for slightly less cost.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#14 - 2013-06-12 13:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Mr Kidd wrote:
2 Tengus make you 200mil/hr/pilot.


Personal experience in C4 has shown that if you count the time to make improved BM's, run the sites, and salvage, you are not anywhere near that rate. About 160mil/hr/pilot is the best you can hope for, and that is with dual/triple boxing scouts and salvagers, no improved BM's, and not using Tengu. And that rate is the same for 2 people, or 6-7, depending on how good the fleet comp is. I am not sure if you are, but there is a frequent tendency to only count "in-site" time in the ISK/hr calcs and that is only part of the picture.

Armor is not going to compete with shield in terms of ISK/hr, but if its what you have, go with it. RR Domi with Sentries can make it happen.

I can say for many fleet comps, running C4 sites got much tougher with the Ship Resist nerf.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-12 14:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
2 Tengus make you 200mil/hr/pilot.


Personal experience in C4 has shown that if you count the time to make improved BM's, run the sites, and salvage, you are not anywhere near that rate. About 160mil/hr/pilot is the best you can hope for, and that is with dual/triple boxing scouts and salvagers, no improved BM's, and not using Tengu. And that rate is the same for 2 people, or 6-7, depending on how good the fleet comp is. I am not sure if you are, but there is a frequent tendency to only count "in-site" time in the ISK/hr calcs and that is only part of the picture.

Armor is not going to compete with shield in terms of ISK/hr, but if its what you have, go with it. RR Domi with Sentries can make it happen.

I can say for many fleet comps, running C4 sites got much tougher with the Ship Resist nerf.


Depends what sites your running. If you focus on one or two specific sites it averages to 200mil +/- depending on rib drops and if you know how to run the sites efficiently and assuming CCP hasn't nudged those drops slightly downward which of late is kinda feel slike. But random is random.

It's as you say, forethought and preparation. But I also know how to run the sites so there is no time wasted traversing distances through which you're not shooting. When I run a site, I'm always applying dps. Which is why I say Tengus have not suffered as much as others would believe.

And that is why I believe running 2 rr tengus barring a few creative fleet comps is the most efficient. Example: running two RR tengus and a mach will net you 25% more isk/hr. Conversely adding a 3rd tengu to the mix will help you complete the sites faster but not more isk efficient. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.

Don't ban me, bro!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-06-12 14:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
2 Tengus make you 200mil/hr/pilot.


Personal experience in C4 has shown that if you count the time to make improved BM's, run the sites, and salvage, you are not anywhere near that rate. About 160mil/hr/pilot is the best you can hope for, and that is with dual/triple boxing scouts and salvagers, no improved BM's, and not using Tengu. And that rate is the same for 2 people, or 6-7, depending on how good the fleet comp is. I am not sure if you are, but there is a frequent tendency to only count "in-site" time in the ISK/hr calcs and that is only part of the picture.

Armor is not going to compete with shield in terms of ISK/hr, but if its what you have, go with it. RR Domi with Sentries can make it happen.

I can say for many fleet comps, running C4 sites got much tougher with the Ship Resist nerf.


Improved BM's?

The nice thing about farming C4's is usually the static is chock full of sites, allowing for easy cherry picking of the anoms you like.

Running Barracks I can easily clear 4 an hour, so say 70min to clear and salvage 4.(If you consider an average 100mil per barracks it is pretty close to 400mil/hr or 200mil/hr per pilot) This is dual boxing Tengus (non RR, yea they are pimpish but they do better DPS and have better range than our RR fits).

I am in range upon landing in a Barracks and can put myself in range for all 3 waves, so range is not an issue. I've also learned where to drop a BM so that all of the wrecks are in easy salvage range.

Command posts are slighly annoying, but the first wave of frigs burns in so fast you can actually move away from them towards the second wave location, so very little time is lost due to range (maybe 30 seconds?).


I still prefer running with a fleet when everyone is on. But I usually make my best isk/hr when im on my own.

Integrated terminus and SIC? I usually ignore these.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#17 - 2013-06-12 15:02:46 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
barring a few creative fleet comps


I believe that we run one of these, hence my scoffing at your Tengu statement... Big smile Very SP intensive in terms of training needs to be fully effective, but if you have the right skills, it is amazingly effective.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#18 - 2013-06-12 15:08:22 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Improved BM's?


I will assume I am not being trolled here. Big smile

When we ran RR Tengu fleets, we had to make Improved BM's to get us the proper ranges at warp-in to minimize the time to engage. Typically a specific structure at each type of site, with a specific fleet warp-in range. While it sounds easy, and it was, it still took time and someone willing and able to do it. Now, we just warp to zero on every site and kill everything without ever having to move. There is a lot to be said for a setup when the only prep is 2 people saying "Hey, let's plex the C4", and they go do it...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-06-12 15:24:21 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Improved BM's?


I will assume I am not being trolled here. Big smile

When we ran RR Tengu fleets, we had to make Improved BM's to get us the proper ranges at warp-in to minimize the time to engage. Typically a specific structure at each type of site, with a specific fleet warp-in range. While it sounds easy, and it was, it still took time and someone willing and able to do it. Now, we just warp to zero on every site and kill everything without ever having to move. There is a lot to be said for a setup when the only prep is 2 people saying "Hey, let's plex the C4", and they go do it...


Not trolled. Just not needed.

My dual Tengu setup hits to 97km (pilots have max skills) and targets to 117km.


A frontier barracks you land ~95km from the first wave warping in at 0. I am in range upon landing. After that its a matter of knowing which way to fly to keep in range of the new waves and keep wrecks in a nice tight ball of sorts.

Frontier command posts are a pain with their starting ranges. But there again as I already said, the first wave is fast frigates. Not really worth the time to make a BM for them as they are in range in 15-20 seconds on average. After that its again knowing which way to fly to be in range of new waves.

Sleeper information sanctum. Its a short range anom where everything burns in nice and close and quickly.

Integrated Terminus. Honestly F this anom. I skip them.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-06-12 15:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Got ya. Not everyone had perfect Tengu skills on our end so it made for quite a bit of no-dps time for people. Big smile Still quite substandard to our current fleet though.

A C4 with a bunch of SIS is pretty sweet no matter what fleet you are running.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
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