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Mega vs. Hype
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Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-06-10 17:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
So I've been coming up with some fits for use after the patch, and while I like the Megathron, I'm struggling to come up with a reason to use it over the Hype. The hype tanks better, has just a tiny bit less dps, and has way more utility due to the five mids and utility high, plus a larger drone bay.

The only advantages I could think of for the mega is that it's a little less than 100m/s faster than the Hype if you overheat your MWD, and the tracking bonus. I've never felt that tracking was all that important in a BS vs. BS engagement, although I'm sure someone will come in here to prove me wrong, so that really only means the Mega has superior application against way undersized opponents, but for practical purposes I don't think it's good enough to mean I would take a Mega gang against a cruiser gang, and BCs have enough sig that once you get a few webs, tracking should not be a huge issue.

Am I missing something from this equation or is the Hype just that good?
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#2 - 2013-06-10 17:17:26 UTC
Tanks break, Hyp is king of solo. But once you take more DPS then your active tank you do down like a sack of ****

So unless its 1vs1 the Mega is considerably better.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#3 - 2013-06-10 17:23:01 UTC
Tracking bonuses are cool, speed is cool. Active armor tanking is not cool outside of solo/tiny-gang PvP, and drones, while very good to have, are not aaalways applicable.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-06-10 17:31:12 UTC
Battle BV Master wrote:
Tanks break, Hyp is king of solo. But once you take more DPS then your active tank you do down like a sack of ****

So unless its 1vs1 the Mega is considerably better.


Well, I meant buffer tank actually. The Hype has much better base stats, so with an equal number of plates and resists, the Hype has a slightly better buffer tank (and this is with comparable dps numbers, where a Hype only needs 2 MFS to get similar dps numbers to a Mega with 3 MFS). I guess you could drop the 3rd MFS from the mega and get a better tank, but then you're compromising a fair bit of dps for heavily stacking penalized resists. I guess you could throw a plate on there, but really I think two plates is overdoing it for buffer these days, and in any case, with equal numbers of MFS, the Hype has much better dps because of its larger drone bandwidth.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5 - 2013-06-10 17:39:08 UTC
The new hype is considerable better for solo/small gang, both buffer or active tanked.

However the new Mega is a pretty impressive bigger gang ship now, where rails are preferred and drones are less important.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6 - 2013-06-10 23:43:41 UTC
I tend to agree with Julius.

Basicaly, the Megathron is relegated to weapons only situations, because whenever you can use drones, the Hyperion will be better. That leave blob warfare and sniping to the Megathron, though for blob warfare any amarr BS will be better.

Oh, there maybe a use for ABC fighting, eventhough this function only come from my imagination.

But I prefer the Hyperion anyway, it's cooler.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#7 - 2013-06-11 04:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Basicaly, the Megathron is relegated to weapons only situations, because whenever you can use drones, the Hyperion will be better. That leave blob warfare and sniping to the Megathron, though for blob warfare any amarr BS will be better.


It is also quite nice for engagements where evil sentry's do bad things to your drones. Pirate

Edit: The new mega might not have the BBQ tracking of the new Apoc, however it is actually very close in the stats if you look for BS vs BS engagements, better EHP, a bit faster and more dps at 40-70km with the same option to dictate range against brick like fleet doctrines(abaddon, maelstrom, rokh). While it might be not a important factor for everyone, it is also 50M cheaper to rig and fit compared to the new apoc(only one faction hardener, rest T2, hybrid turret cpu rigs are dirt cheap), runs considerable longer with the same amount of cap charges and can be refitted in the field to engage beyond 100km by adding a sensor booster or signal amplifier, since it is more flexible with the range than puls BS.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Jmam Amanananal
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-06-11 06:07:31 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So I've been coming up with some fits for use after the patch, and while I like the Megathron, I'm struggling to come up with a reason to use it over the Hype. The hype tanks better, has just a tiny bit less dps, and has way more utility due to the five mids and utility high, plus a larger drone bay.

The only advantages I could think of for the mega is that it's a little less than 100m/s faster than the Hype if you overheat your MWD, and the tracking bonus. I've never felt that tracking was all that important in a BS vs. BS engagement, although I'm sure someone will come in here to prove me wrong, so that really only means the Mega has superior application against way undersized opponents, but for practical purposes I don't think it's good enough to mean I would take a Mega gang against a cruiser gang, and BCs have enough sig that once you get a few webs, tracking should not be a huge issue.

Am I missing something from this equation or is the Hype just that good?


You play EVE?
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-11 11:11:22 UTC
Jmam Amanananal wrote:
Julius Foederatus wrote:
So I've been coming up with some fits for use after the patch, and while I like the Megathron, I'm struggling to come up with a reason to use it over the Hype. The hype tanks better, has just a tiny bit less dps, and has way more utility due to the five mids and utility high, plus a larger drone bay.

The only advantages I could think of for the mega is that it's a little less than 100m/s faster than the Hype if you overheat your MWD, and the tracking bonus. I've never felt that tracking was all that important in a BS vs. BS engagement, although I'm sure someone will come in here to prove me wrong, so that really only means the Mega has superior application against way undersized opponents, but for practical purposes I don't think it's good enough to mean I would take a Mega gang against a cruiser gang, and BCs have enough sig that once you get a few webs, tracking should not be a huge issue.

Am I missing something from this equation or is the Hype just that good?


You play EVE?


Yeah I have more time now that it's summer.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-06-11 11:12:27 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Basicaly, the Megathron is relegated to weapons only situations, because whenever you can use drones, the Hyperion will be better. That leave blob warfare and sniping to the Megathron, though for blob warfare any amarr BS will be better.


It is also quite nice for engagements where evil sentry's do bad things to your drones. Pirate

Edit: The new mega might not have the BBQ tracking of the new Apoc, however it is actually very close in the stats if you look for BS vs BS engagements, better EHP, a bit faster and more dps at 40-70km with the same option to dictate range against brick like fleet doctrines(abaddon, maelstrom, rokh). While it might be not a important factor for everyone, it is also 50M cheaper to rig and fit compared to the new apoc(only one faction hardener, rest T2, hybrid turret cpu rigs are dirt cheap), runs considerable longer with the same amount of cap charges and can be refitted in the field to engage beyond 100km by adding a sensor booster or signal amplifier, since it is more flexible with the range than puls BS.


I thought sentries didn't shoot drones anymore, as of Inferno?
To mare
Advanced Technology
#11 - 2013-06-11 11:33:58 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Basicaly, the Megathron is relegated to weapons only situations, because whenever you can use drones, the Hyperion will be better. That leave blob warfare and sniping to the Megathron, though for blob warfare any amarr BS will be better.


It is also quite nice for engagements where evil sentry's do bad things to your drones. Pirate

Edit: The new mega might not have the BBQ tracking of the new Apoc, however it is actually very close in the stats if you look for BS vs BS engagements, better EHP, a bit faster and more dps at 40-70km with the same option to dictate range against brick like fleet doctrines(abaddon, maelstrom, rokh). While it might be not a important factor for everyone, it is also 50M cheaper to rig and fit compared to the new apoc(only one faction hardener, rest T2, hybrid turret cpu rigs are dirt cheap), runs considerable longer with the same amount of cap charges and can be refitted in the field to engage beyond 100km by adding a sensor booster or signal amplifier, since it is more flexible with the range than puls BS.


I thought sentries didn't shoot drones anymore, as of Inferno?

correct, but some ppl still dont know that
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#12 - 2013-06-11 11:37:47 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Basicaly, the Megathron is relegated to weapons only situations, because whenever you can use drones, the Hyperion will be better. That leave blob warfare and sniping to the Megathron, though for blob warfare any amarr BS will be better.


It is also quite nice for engagements where evil sentry's do bad things to your drones. Pirate

Edit: The new mega might not have the BBQ tracking of the new Apoc, however it is actually very close in the stats if you look for BS vs BS engagements, better EHP, a bit faster and more dps at 40-70km with the same option to dictate range against brick like fleet doctrines(abaddon, maelstrom, rokh). While it might be not a important factor for everyone, it is also 50M cheaper to rig and fit compared to the new apoc(only one faction hardener, rest T2, hybrid turret cpu rigs are dirt cheap), runs considerable longer with the same amount of cap charges and can be refitted in the field to engage beyond 100km by adding a sensor booster or signal amplifier, since it is more flexible with the range than puls BS.


I thought sentries didn't shoot drones anymore, as of Inferno?


Ah good to know, quitted the game actually with inferno. Thx for the info. Smile

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#13 - 2013-06-11 12:21:29 UTC
The Megathron is not bad, far from it, but my worry are that he have no niche for him. Between the Hyperion, the Apocalypse and the Abaddon, the ladder of tracking/damage/speed is pretty crowdy.

And in fact, the fault is as much on the Mega than on the railguns vs beams. For blasters, I hardly see any situation where you can use blasters but no drones, so the Hyperion should be better in almost all situation involving blasters IMO.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#14 - 2013-06-11 14:14:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The Megathron is not bad, far from it, but my worry are that he have no niche for him. Between the Hyperion, the Apocalypse and the Abaddon, the ladder of tracking/damage/speed is pretty crowdy.

And in fact, the fault is as much on the Mega than on the railguns vs beams. For blasters, I hardly see any situation where you can use blasters but no drones, so the Hyperion should be better in almost all situation involving blasters IMO.


Comparing turret DPS with the Apoc and Abaddon (they all have the same drone bay size, but the Apoc is limited to 50m3 bandwidth)

Abaddon, 8 Mega Pulse, 2 Heat Sink, Conflag, 909dps at 15+10km
Abaddon, 8 Mega Pulse, 2 Heat Sink, Scorch, 649dps at 15+10km

Apocalypse, 8 Mega Pulse, 2 Heat Sink, Conflag, 727dps at 21+10km
Apocalypse, 8 Mega Pulse, 2 Heat Sink, Scorch, 727dps at 62+10km

Megathron, 7 Neutron, 2 MFS, VOID, 1039dps at 7+6km
Megathron, 7 Neutron, 2 MFS, NULL, 742dps at 13+18km

And now, since the Mega can and should fit three damage mods while keeping the standard BS 5 slots tank

Megathron, 7 Neutron, 2 MFS, VOID, 1169dps at 7+6km
Megathron, 7 Neutron, 2 MFS, NULL, 835dps at 13+18km

If the fight isn't so blobby that you don't have time to close to the target before it pops, the Mega got a huge damage advantage with a tank more or less identical to the Apocalypse (better actually, the Apoc runs in CPU trouble).

Using those setup,

[Apocalypse, std]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Internal Force Field Array I
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x5

And

[Megathron, std]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Valkyrie II x5

The Mega is faster, slightly more agile, got 10k more EHP and out DPS the Apoc by 450dps.

Are you so sure it's not a viable niche?
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#15 - 2013-06-11 14:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The Megathron is not bad, far from it, but my worry are that he have no niche for him. Between the Hyperion, the Apocalypse and the Abaddon, the ladder of tracking/damage/speed is pretty crowdy.

And in fact, the fault is as much on the Mega than on the railguns vs beams. For blasters, I hardly see any situation where you can use blasters but no drones, so the Hyperion should be better in almost all situation involving blasters IMO.


The hyperion is better when it comes to blasters, it is basically the old hype and old mega in one ship, combining the utility high, a lot of drones, 5 meds and 7 lows. While I like the concept, it simply got to much EHP, fittings and probably speed currently, to provide a niche for the new mega with blasters.

As for fleet fights, I think the slow speed of the abaddon and lesser number of effective turrets of the apoc work here, to make the new rail mega competitive. A apoc and abaddon needs to do compromises to fit beams(you need the discharge rigs further increasing the power grid use of beams, you need fitting mods) what reduces slots for tank or dps. While I fund it not justified that the new mega should have 8 low slots and 9,3 effective turrets(I am still not sure if the cpu buff was justified) in the beginning, after playing around with the concept, I think it is a fairly competitive design, that needs to do less compromises in the fittings and use the extra low/rig slots to increase damage and tank to a bit higher levels. The ship got designed a little stronger that it gets away with weaker weapons, or at least it looks to me like that.

Against puls setups, the mega can outrage the abaddon, what is a lot slower, it got 2 range windows(40-70km and 100km+, because it can use one more damage mod) where it can out damage the puls apoc, while holding the better tank(mostly because it doesn't need a discharge rig and locus rig, and can use this slots for tank). It also can engage at ranges under and over 100km with the same setup with good results, puls setups can't do that, her ranges are technically limited at around 80 and 110km with drugs, while the 110km also require for the apocs to drop a damage mod for a signal amplifier(they can't drop a TC for that because it would reduce the range to much), while the megathron could drop a TC and use spike up to 150km still in optimal or drop a mag stab for a signal amplifier to use faction ammo for the better tracking.

Caius Sivaris wrote:

Are you so sure it's not a viable niche?


I think he was referring as no niche compared to the current hyperion(that can tank a lot better while hitting just as hard and being just as fast) with blasters, and amarr hulls in fleet pvp, where the megathron is generally expected to be 50-150km rail platform.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#16 - 2013-06-11 15:38:22 UTC
As for reference, this was the setup I used to compare it with puls hulls:

[Megathron, Fleet Mega]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Imperial Navy Armor Kinetic Hardener
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit II
Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Curator II x2

Large cap booster fits(this fitting runs for over 2.5 minutes with mwd and all running, mwd off it is 100% stable), but needs another faction hardener or named DCU, CPU rig could be dropped with 2 more faction hardeners and named dcu but I was thinking it is a fairly cheap option to save money on the fitting(last time I checked the rig was around 20m). It has also enough pg and cpu left over to switch a mfs for another 1600mm T2 plate.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#17 - 2013-06-11 23:42:20 UTC
The Djego wrote:

I think he was referring as no niche compared to the current hyperion(that can tank a lot better while hitting just as hard and being just as fast) with blasters, and amarr hulls in fleet pvp, where the megathron is generally expected to be 50-150km rail platform.


A hype in plated configuration costs 60M more than a Mega, got slightly more EHP but does less DPS and is slower... It can bring an heavy neut but that's a pretty expensive price to pay for one... For a Guardian/Oneiros supported gang I'd definitely go for the mega.

For reference, Hype fit used to compare to the Mega used earlier, wit the tracking comp it actually tracks slightly better than the Mega...

[Hyperion, plated]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Berserker II x5