Ships & Modules

In his defense I fly more caldari ships with ecm than I fly minmatar ships with launchers and I also fly a plated scorpion about as often as I fly any minmatar ship that's armor tanked.

Technically, he's wrong, but practically, he's absolutely right. Hybrids shouldn't really be considered a weapon system for caldari atm. ECM has become the only role for caldari outside of heavy missile spam and the occasionall basi logistic chain. Plating scorps is one of the few ways to get a caldari ship into an armor fleet (admittedly not as commonplace as it used to be).

I think you should start making that comparison if you'd like to make a case that buffing the other ships could yeild balanced results in the new ship class. I conceded the point about the whole 'using the tornado as argument against hail,' thing. No argument from me there.



Glad we agree on this, but like I said, I'd like to hear what you and others think can be done with them. I don't see a torp or hybrid platform (given the test server state of both weapon systems) coming on par with the tornado without some miraculous fixing.

so you are fighting an abaddon , whoho so slow your orbit down to where you can hit him and he still cant hit you
and dont try to tell me that your 800mm ac tracking is worse than the abaddons pulses... even before you take into the ships signature differences
where did i say i would fight from 60+6km? reread what i wrote
btw moving fast is not something you should always have to do, it is an option which other races dont have most of the time, use it only if it gives you advantage, i bet yours has brakes too...

I dont get where you get that tornados track things horribly , it track enemies as much as any other ship with 800mm ac-s fitteted.
It is a bs size weapon after all.

I see caldari being forced into ecm support ships more often than minmatar into scimis, although I recognize a bit of a cyclical relationship there (drake fleets encourage minmtar pilots to fly logi, minmtar fleets encourage caldari pilots to fly logi or ewar). As I said, I agree it's functionally incorrect to make the comparison from ewar system to weapon system, but I find the argument to be less than flagrantly misleading considering the state of caldari ships at the moment.

Not really an important argument, so I think we can agree to disagree on the finer points. =P

Minmatar have low skill requirements.
There, I said it.

How many popular Minnie ships frequently fit missiles, anyway? Something like two.
Of course, this is more than made up by the LUDICROUSLY easy fitting. No need to consider trade-offs between tank, gank and speed. Just slap on everything with the biggest numbers and you're done.

This is due to the extremely high PG of Minmatar ships, which is due to the high PG usage of arties.
Reduce arty PG usage, reduce Minmatar ship powergrid.

Fixed. Your point still stands, but don't be selective.

So I did a little test - put 3 L turrets on an unbonused ship (dread) and stuck a couple of tracking enhancers(which according to posters work best for minmatar)

With t2 long range ammo I get

800AC -7.8 +59 , DPS:40
Pulse - 58+16 , DPS:44
Blast - 15+26 , DPS:52

Unless my 8 years of eve online have taught me wrong 59km of falloff and 40 dps is significantly less than 58 optimal and 44 DPS, and blasters are just like a sword - deadly close up but ultimately melee weapons at gun fights.

Obviously the guns that need nerfing are the lazors - we should really nerf them good - their optimal , at least 3 seconds for exchanging the lenses and of course we should give them less DPS than AC's since they work in optimal and AC's in falloff.

or maybe give hybrids some more range instead of the stupid DPS increase I mean what good is all the DPS in the world when you can't apply it.


Edit:
Actually it was said blasters get 10% more DPS so 10% of 52 is 5.2 or new DPS 57 DPS . Which won't do you much good if it can't hit.

OK so

Eagle still sucks

Rokh is still the best sniper in useless theoretical scenario

Ferox well at least they are cheap.

Did I miss anything?

Comments:
- It's not fair to talk about the Griffin and Kitsune because nobody flies them (there are even dev blogs acknowledging this). At that rate we might as well talk about the Bellicose and Painter ships because I'm sure it gets more use than both combined. That aside, I didn't dismiss the ECM lineup of ships requiring skills - I said it was absurd to place support skills like that on an equal footing with other support skills.
- If your entire line of ECM ships is acceptable evidence that Caldari have a third major weapon system, then its probably worth including all the missile skills for Minmatar for all the (more numerous) split weapon platform ships.
- If Minmatar can enter at specific points in the missile tree, so can Caldari FWIW. The only case I can see any argument for Caldari being more SP intensive is with HML (if you ignore Arby HML Cyclone fits). Furthermore, the fact that no Minmatar ship gets a missile range bonus makes the range support skills even more important for Minmatar than Caldari.
- I wasn't going to bring up the Nag, but since you did I will say that the jump to Carriers for Caldari (going from Drones being a kinda maybe sometimes weapons system to must ******* train the whole goddamn thing) is almost as bad as the Nag. Both are just massive SP :efforts:.
- I find it amusing that you accuse me of having grown old and stubborn. One of my last threads before I left Eve was an expose on why the Basilisk is in fact the superior logi for small gang shield combat (over the Scimitar) - something that I hadn't previously believed and something that even still flies in the face of accepted doctrine. Of course, I'm sure you'll continue with your "woe is caldari" and "nerf Minmatar because they still exist" line of complaining.

-Liang

Yeah if you stick completely to one race this game is super easy to skill for.

I for one could never keep to one race because they were all cool in their own way, so now I have good skills in all races haha!