Assembly Hall

Proposal:

Energy Discharge Elutriation I should be changed from 20% to 25% cap reduction for laser turrets and the T2 variant from 25% to 30%.


As a few might have seen there was a very big discussion about the changes to the amarr hulls, losing her cap bonus with the current Odyssey expansion. While I like the changes, there actually is a reasonable concern of performance lose with some platforms, especially for newer players. As you think back of your early days we mostly did CCC and recharger stacking, improving cap recharge to a point where the hole setup runs forever or long enough for your needs. However many amarr hulls actually perform noticeably better with the cap if you use discharge rigs instead of CCCs, since the massive reduction in weapon capacitor use, especially with high damage ammo is better than what you can stack up with cap recharge mods(if you just use 1-2 rig slots and 1-2 low/med slots).

The problem with T1 guns is actually, big surprise, that they don't need so much cap and therefore new players can't really take advantage of discharge rigging(actually they even got nerfed with the general cap reduction of lasers). With a improvement of the discharge rigs even newer players with T1 guns get a noticeable improvement if they want to reduce slots for cap spend to a minimum to get a better overall performance out of hulls like the new apoc or navy Omen in pve.

[Apocalypse, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I

Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

With all 5, the setup runs(AB off, repper on):

4m 35s with multi
7m 32s with xray
25m 33s with standard

With all 3 CCCs removed and replaced with 2 of the current T1 discharger rigs it looks like this:

3m 56s with multi
4m 50s with xray
5m 56s with standard

If you replace them 2 T2 discharge rigs(while T1 would be as effective after the change) you get:

4m 20s with multi
5m 16s with xray
6m 26s with standard

If you now look at the numbers with the new 30% value(I took triple T1 discharge rigs) with 2 of the new T2 discharge rigs it looks like this:

4m 37s with multi
5m 37s with xray
6m 59s with standard

As you can see with the extra 5% discharge rigs would be a lot better option for younger players than they are now, giving you nearly the same performance with multi frequency crystals as if you use CCC stacking. Keep in mind that a fitting like this also frees a rig slot(that can be spend on cap, range, tank etc.) and with lower levels in controlled burst and cap skills, the discharge rigs are even better. Once you look at T2 guns and T2 ammo dischargers are actually become the preferable option compared to CCCs, since your guns use a lot more cap and you will utilize scorch and conflag a lot more than standard crystals, so you spend nearly 100% of your time with crystals that favour discharge rigging.

To summarize:

- new players can start to utilize discharge rigs earlier, by getting more comparable results compared to CCC stacking at least for multi frequency crystals even with T1 guns
- it softens the blow for newer people starting with a BS for L4, since both laser options don't got a cap bonus(and the abaddon takes noticeable more damage now, requiring noticeable more cap to rep it up, as I tested it out after the patch, it did feel a bit less stable overall, if you can call a 3m 10s setup stable)
- old cap booster setups on the apoc need less changes for older players
- overall runtime of the hulls gets slightly improved, not really enough to drop a cap mod but new players will notice it

For pvp the change would obviously make some fleet setups run a bit longer with the same amount of cap charges, but the biggest improvement would be better runtime for nano kitting setups, making the rigs a more useful option compared to other popular energy rigging choices(optimal, tracking, damage, rof). While the power grid penalty is a hard one on active tanking setups, the higher bonus might actually convince some people to use them.

Well it is not intended to be the all end fix to amarr and laser problems, however I think it is a step in the right direction. I made this after a lot of discussion here, on the german forums and ingame about the matter. It isn't even the case that I got big issues with the changes atm, I even feel they are great if I look at the navy apoc now, but I do realize other people play a bit differently and might not agree with me for that matter.

I played around with a few ideas and adjusting discharge rigs a bit seamed to be the most sensible solution. It gives newer players the useful option to use discharge fittings early on and reduces the issues many people got with her BS after the change to more manageable levels. If I look at my navy apoc(1xT1 and 1xT2 discharge rig), it improves cap life from 3.5 to 4 minutes with conflag and 4.5 to 5 with multi frequency, so it is quite a noticeable improvement and it does scale very good for lower skill levels.

I am also a bit concerned what will happen with lasers and amarr in a more complex makeover, time will tell I guess.

Actually no, somebody I know for years(he is not to bad at pushing L4 times) got a lot of issues with this strategy on his new navy apoc, because it only runs as long as my setup, with the difference that he needs to permarun his cap booster, while I relay on cap recharge and cap use reduction with 2 rig slots and a low slot mod more, spend on cap stuff.

As a second note, I never run cap booster setups(I tried, they are terrible) and think they are bad for pve, especially on amarr hulls.

I'm pretty sure he didn't permarun the repper and his problem is actually exactly that he didn't fit a single cap related module except the cap booster on the apoc like he did before the patch.

With the cap bonus change the apoc is down to 14 volleys with multi frequency or 12 with conflagration, per 800er cap charge. If you add some repping and constant capacitor drains like hardeners and TCs, this means about 2 cap charges per minute.

After ammo and a container for spare crystals, you look at around 23-24 charges what translates into a runtime of 11,5 and 12 minutes what isn't enough for some L4. While his problem will not change without him changing rigs, coming a bit out of his comfort zone for tank and dropping his T2 rof rig, I think he might be ok if he uses a single 30% discharge rig. It isn't a bad idea if we keep it nice and simple for people with her old cap booster setups. A setup that doesn't need one needs 1 med, 1 low, 2 rigs and a setup that gains a bit more efficiency if you use one needs 1 rig, 1 med slot, I think that should be a viable ratio to anybody.

Amarr hulls with cap bonuses have a very similar runtime as hybrid hulls. Since apparently nobody liked cap bonuses CCP changed them for some weapon related bonuses. As explained in the Amarr BS balancing thread, dropping the cap bonus is just switching around some modules/rigs on high SP fittings. This is also the reason why I don't have issues with it.

Discharge rigs provide weapon cap use bonuses similar to the old ones on the hulls and are a better option than CCC stacking on high SP levels where you can burn a lot of cap with lasers and hulls without a cap bonus. Like explained before the scaling makes them more effective with less slots invested(better run time with high damage ammo, less with low cap ammo). Because of the same scaling principals, newer players with T1 weapons can't utilize this fitting feature properly and will lose performance without the cap bonus on the hulls in many cases. To address this, I made this proposal. As a positive side effect, I hope people can be similar happy as I am with the new Apoc and navy Apoc in pve.

I am well aware that cap bonuses where intended as damage bonuses(and actually where pretty solid), that where build into lasers already and served as restriction for other hulls to not fit lasers, because lasers where simply better. A lot got changed over the years with other weapon systems and hulls, gallente hulls are no longer fitting starved(still utterly terrible at point blank compared to pre QR ability's), minmtar hulls with ACs actually do some dps at range and caldari are the new medium range kings with the CM update. In my opinion by dropping the cap bonuses, adding speed, range and tracking to the hulls, Rise tries to bring lasers back to a point where they can not just compete but dominate other options in fleet pvp(the new navy Apoc is a awesome example for that), if you can handle fitting and capacitor restrictions. Even for solo and small gang the hulls look a lot more competitive now(navy omen can kite like a zealot, geddon is a very useful addition and the new apoc can be played like a nano pest with super high range).

If you look at the old designs with only the cap bonus, most used off racial weapons. Not because lasers where bad, but because the extra fitting and cap saving could be used to build massive tanks and provide overall better performance in pure ehp/dps fights. With the new approach of giving out weapon bonuses instead of cap bonuses, Rise tries to amplify the advantage of laser fittings on the hulls, making them hit harder, further and better than other ships in her class.

While the change to discharger rigs doesn't look like much, it will suddenly help a lot of new players and pure pve players to get back to the point they where before Odyssey and make the process of changing old habits for amarr players less harsh, since I am sure Rise wants to drop even more cap bonuses on other hulls. This isn't bad in my opinion, as long as you have the ability to chose between a cap hungry min/max setup or something that can be made fairly cap stable with a few adjustments in the rigging/med/low slot department, not just for high sp players, but every amarr player.