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Sailo Ormand
Some Men Just Want A Tangerine
#221 - 2013-06-10 14:16:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
While I agree it would be lovely to see the properly protean T3s, it seems futile to lessen the power of the T3 ships without giving them some sort of in-space purpose-changing function.


No it makes perfect sense to lower T3 cruisers so that they are balanced with the other cruisers.


No, it really doesn't. Care to explain your point?


T3 cruisers are not only better than cruisers, they are better than battlecruisers and get into battleship areas.

Give me one reason why a cruiser should have the firepower, sig and speed of a zealot while sporting a buffer an apoc would be happy with and still have room for tackle gear.

Then there is the issue of t3s ability to warp cloaked AND ignore bubbles. Those two things should never have been allowed to be put on one ship.


I don't mind that the IN and CR systems can be on at the same time I just think there should be a stronger nerf to the setups wich use both. -90% cargo -50% speed or something drastic. I dunno, obviously something more properly thought out, but the option of having a nearly uncatchable scout is okay with me if it costs several hundred million.
Nycterix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-06-10 14:17:27 UTC
Antoine Jordan wrote:
I don't know where you get these ideas. "Alliance blobs", as you like to call them, are pretty much the largest consumers and destroyers of t3s in the game. While initially they may have been primarily used by wormhole dwellers, nullsec movers and shakers have been fielding fleets centered around them for years now. There is no way you could remove or nerf t3 without hurting the military capabilities of the "alliance blobs" that own (now practically worthless) tech moons. That doesn't mean they might not need a nerf - we have a record of taking advantage of overpowered things while providing CCP feedback with how overpowered they are, and the need for adjustment (see, the very same tech moons you mentioned).


I think his point was not that nullsec alliances do not use T3 fleets, this is common knowledge and has been done for years. I myself have flown in them. Instead, if T3s are put down like the rabid dogs many say they are, and T2 ships become largely better than them, as CCP's chart suggests, it will favor nullsec production at the expense of WH production, in a simplistic sense.

Also, I seriously doubt the nullsec movers and shakers and their minions about whom you are talking would be seriously hurt militarily if T3s were nerfed. There will always be new fleet concepts, and, I mean, you've got supers after all.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2013-06-10 14:20:41 UTC
Sailo Ormand wrote:
I don't mind that the IN and CR systems can be on at the same time I just think there should be a stronger nerf to the setups wich use both. -90% cargo -50% speed or something drastic. I dunno, obviously something more properly thought out, but the option of having a nearly uncatchable scout is okay with me if it costs several hundred million.
I'm more on the field where it can't do anything else remotely well, but scout.

IN subs are a wee bit too strong, even considering the maulus they all have (worst agility stats, no low-slot added)

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#224 - 2013-06-10 14:21:06 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
from that price, I really hope that rifter can kill a titan.

Of course it can. Balance.

Oh god.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2013-06-10 14:22:10 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
from that price, I really hope that rifter can kill a titan.

Of course it can. Balance.

P

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#226 - 2013-06-10 14:23:30 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

from that price, I really hope that rifter can kill a titan.



Heh thats cheap.

[Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Federate Issue fit]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Imperial Navy 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates
Damage Control II
Shaqil's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shaqil's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Co-Processor

Tobias' Modified 100MN Microwarpdrive
Cormack's Modified Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Cormack's Modified Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Tobias' Modified Warp Disruptor
True Sansha Stasis Webifier

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Anti-Explosive Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
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Garde II x5

1.044 Trillion pricetag.
Ylariana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#227 - 2013-06-10 14:24:29 UTC
Kaahles wrote:


Maybe when doing so they decide to adjust their plan somewhat based on feedback from actual playtesting.



There's a First Time for everything I guess...... recent experience suggests not restricting your access to oxygen in anticipation of this though .......
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#228 - 2013-06-10 14:31:52 UTC
Tiber Ibis wrote:
The only thing that confuses me about that chart is why is pirate tech better than tech 2 from a lore perspective. Imagine when pirates finally get hold of tech II technology. *evil grin*


This rocked my world a little!
Never really thought about it, but it really seems weird that pirate versions are better...
I mean, a weapon research or even research in general tend to get better when backed up with more resources. In that case, shouldn't the 4 regular navies be able to push more money than the pirate factions?
Copper Rei
Copper Corp
Aggressively Passive Bears
#229 - 2013-06-10 14:33:05 UTC
I guess after allthe posts and various blogs.......

It is obvious that the decision to kick the t3 from 3/10 and 4/10 was one of haste and lack of better ideas on how to make people happy.

This toipic is way too hot to ignore ....

I am looking forward to them coming back into play in h-sec, even if they lose some bonuses. (change of subsystems) etc.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-06-10 14:35:06 UTC
Copper Rei wrote:
I guess after allthe posts and various blogs.......

It is obvious that the decision to kick the t3 from 3/10 and 4/10 was one of haste and lack of better ideas on how to make people happy.

This toipic is way too hot to ignore ....

I am looking forward to them coming back into play in h-sec, even if they lose some bonuses. (change of subsystems) etc.


another reason for T3's to get the nerf sooner rather than later..

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#231 - 2013-06-10 15:13:05 UTC
1c3crysta1 wrote:
Tiber Ibis wrote:
The only thing that confuses me about that chart is why is pirate tech better than tech 2 from a lore perspective. Imagine when pirates finally get hold of tech II technology. *evil grin*


This rocked my world a little!
Never really thought about it, but it really seems weird that pirate versions are better...
I mean, a weapon research or even research in general tend to get better when backed up with more resources. In that case, shouldn't the 4 regular navies be able to push more money than the pirate factions?

Pirate variants have been considered best of class for quite some time now.

If you want a lore justification, consider that pirates would have no issues with stealing the plans for the most advanced ships available and then modifying them to suit their purposes.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sailo Ormand
Some Men Just Want A Tangerine
#232 - 2013-06-10 15:20:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
1c3crysta1 wrote:
Tiber Ibis wrote:
The only thing that confuses me about that chart is why is pirate tech better than tech 2 from a lore perspective. Imagine when pirates finally get hold of tech II technology. *evil grin*


This rocked my world a little!
Never really thought about it, but it really seems weird that pirate versions are better...
I mean, a weapon research or even research in general tend to get better when backed up with more resources. In that case, shouldn't the 4 regular navies be able to push more money than the pirate factions?

Pirate variants have been considered best of class for quite some time now.

If you want a lore justification, consider that pirates would have no issues with stealing the plans for the most advanced ships available and then modifying them to suit their purposes.


Yyyeah but why wouldn't the original designers of said hi-tech ships hove something comparable?

From a lore standpoint it would make sense if pirate ships were comparable to Navy ships in power but adapted for some unusual role / more versatile. Seeing a pirate ship as the unusual, creative and bizarre lovechild of pirate ingenuity and stolen empire ship designs would make me happier than them being just REALLY GOOD.

But then again... the Daredevil does make me drool.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#233 - 2013-06-10 15:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Because pirates live in nullsec so they get better rewards. Also Angel ships are copied from Jove blueprints they found in space and Guristas are a mixture of Caldari and Gallente designs. I think Sansha design their own ships from scratch, not sure about the others.

Oh god.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-06-10 15:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
baltec1 wrote:
Donedy wrote:
Im talking about cruisers, BCs, BS, even frigs, who know.
Its just a matter of brain, fits, situation and stuff.

Okay, its hard with a T1 cruiser, but its till doable. and not so hard if you adapt your fit to the situation.


On staurday a single legion wiped out a whole test gang of talwars solo before the rest of the fleet could warp to a gate. We use tengu because they are better at being a drake than the drake is.

There is no getting around the fact that t3 cruisers are horribly overpowered.


That's what neuts are for. So, no, a tengu is not a better drake, it's a better ship -- for some roles, -- not to mention isk efficiency.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2013-06-10 15:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
baltec1 wrote:

I have t2 legion and tengu fits that match my faction fit navy mega in buffer of 130k+ EHP. If there is one thing I can hold to my name its the ability to fit a megathron well.

T3s are simply far too powerful for cruisers and have needed the nerf hammer for a very long time to bring them in line with the other cruisers. Give me a reason why I would fly a deimos over a proteus or a zealot over a legion. There isnt any, the T3s utterly wipe the floor with any other cruiser.


One reason: They're cheaper.


And depending on your fit there are examples of T2 cruisers that can one on one a T3 and win. Should all T2's be able to win over a T3 before they're not considered overpowered?

I'm going to give you some examples here.Granted this will be limited to the Proteus because that's what I fly.

A SB fit with tracking disruptors can kill a Proteus. 20km disruptor range + tracking disruptors means that Proteus is never going to hit that SB. Nor can it speed away from it. I don't care how much dps or tank that Proteus has.

A Pilgrim will neut a Proteus to submission.

A Falcon will jam a Proteus to silence

In fact ANY T2 will kill a Proteus if FIT FOR THE FIGHT.

And any fight is about the FIT. If you're bring 1) the wrong ship or 2) the right ship with the wrong fit, you're going to lose. That's the chance you take. That T3 will wipe the floor with you. And so will a frigate if you're not prepared for it. Are frigates overpowered because they can kill battleships?

As for your Navy Mega, maybe you should fit ECM drones to quiet those T3 guns or Web drones so your big guns can be brought to bear. Maybe sacrifice a highslot for a neut or two. Maybe stop quad stacking mag stabs put on some tracking enhancers. Maybe use a booster to enhance tracking. But your thinking is quite linear.....gemme moar dps moar tank....I aint gonna win without it. Halp me CCP!

Hate to break it to you, but more dps and more tank doesn't make you a better pvp'er when you ignore or have no concept of what it is you're fighting and do not use its weaknesses against it.

Given the current state of T2's, the only way to bring T3's sub T2 performance and (as CCP stated) to remove overlap is to make it a wet cold turd.

Don't ban me, bro!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#236 - 2013-06-10 15:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


That's what neuts are for. So, no, a tengu is not a better drake, it's a better ship -- for some roles, -- not to mention isk efficiency.


Its faster, much smaller sig, bigger tank and the same or better firepower. If the drake was better then we would be still flying them.
Xhieron
Sanctum Mercatoris
#237 - 2013-06-10 15:43:22 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:

My pleasure derived at flying a T3 is in the fact that I'm not flying a hull that I consider subpar and limited as I do with T2. Some hull has to be on top. It has to be top dog. That CCP is nerfing the current top dog irks me because of the investment I've made in skilling for those hulls. Once T2's become the top dog CCP will then again want to nerf those hulls devaluing any investment in time and isk I've made there and so on and so on. This is a case where CCP needs to leave well enough alone beyond a few tweaks.


This is the most compelling argument I've read here, and I think it should inform the responsible parties as the nerfing commences--and nevermind whether it should or not. When the dust settles there will be a top dog again, and whether it's T3's, ECM-town, or VampDomis, there's going to be something that excels--maybe not in all engagements in all space, but something that excels enough in enough places to attract the ire of those who find themselves on the wrong end of it.

Right now it's T3's, and unlike some of the previous contenders, T3's have a uniformly high price tag and an investment cost not seen anywhere else in that losing one necessarily costs you your time, the most precious and irreplaceable commodity in space. Sure, the price is elevated because people pour money into these things, and indeed, T3's shouldn't be all things to all people, but adopting a general policy that T2 should always out-perform T3 in T2's role is a recipe for a new set of problems.

You'll see a meta shift, sure, as the age of T3's closes, but in its aftermath something else will rise, and it'll be targeted next. That's the cycle. Balance work is never going to end, and I'd even concede that T3's need work--in some cases and for some subsystems, a lot of work--but that work should not be a blanket nerf--and if there has to be something on top of the heap (hint: there does), a T3 is a better option than the alternatives.

A T3 fit to do the work of a T2, all else being equal (i.e., officer v. officer), should be a competitive engagement with the outcome to be dependent on pilot skill rather than hull strength. A tall order, but a better balance paradigm than "T2 is better because this is all this T2 can do."
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#238 - 2013-06-10 15:45:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


That's what neuts are for. So, no, a tengu is not a better drake, it's a better ship -- for some roles, -- not to mention isk efficiency.


Its faster, much smaller sig, bigger tank and the same or better firepower. If the drake was better then we would be still flying them.


better range better resists combined with reps makes them super bricks more speed and can somehow fit battleship AB's ... other than that there pretty much the same :P

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#239 - 2013-06-10 15:53:26 UTC
Xhieron wrote:
This is the most compelling argument I've read here, and I think it should inform the responsible parties as the nerfing commences--and nevermind whether it should or not. When the dust settles there will be a top dog again, and whether it's T3's, ECM-town, or VampDomis, there's going to be something that excels

Is that so? So which T1 frigate is top dog amongst all T1 frigates right now? How about T1 cruisers, which one of those is the top dog?

Oh god.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2013-06-10 15:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
baltec1 wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


That's what neuts are for. So, no, a tengu is not a better drake, it's a better ship -- for some roles, -- not to mention isk efficiency.


Its faster, much smaller sig, bigger tank and the same or better firepower. If the drake was better then we would be still flying them.


You can't (shouldn't) passive tank a Tengu. Why is it a problem that the Tengu is a better ship?

Seriously, did people not get the purple gear in (insert mindless MMO here), and decided paybacks were in order.

I guess we don't need the drake then...oh wait, yes we do. It's easier to skill for and cheaper and drake blobs are (were) win.