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My thoughts on eve and mini-games...
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-06-10 05:01:09 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.


And if that happens it's bad design.

EQII the tradeskill mini-game is easy enough to not interfere with both socializing and even doing rush orders. Players will be in their guild halls, in VOIP and doing just fine.

Problem with the mini-game so far released is: EvE is a PvP game and it can happen anywhere. Such a mini-game will have to be small, and where a player can watch over his shoulder. Something like keypads. Spend too long at it, it turns it into a cannon fodder activity, and that's a waste of time and money.

In PvP, KISS principle applies. When players don't loot drops in fear of not seeing the enemy (Black Legion loot policy for example -- 2bil worth of goods can goto waste, but they're not stopping to loot it, they'll destroy it instead)...yeah...keep it simple.

I remember once in wormholes, there was a blown up Orca i kept insisting on checking for loot, FC kept saying "no no, it died recently on their Killboard, enemy fleet is prolly at a deepsafe in here"

anyways, went up to loot the container (loe and behold, craptons of sleeperloot), start loading up my cargo with the best stuff, ****-crap 7 proteus' decloak (yeah seriously, they were flying cloaky proteus' not even joking), start targeting my tengu, allied fleet of 3 loki's a tengu, and 2 legions decloak, enemy fleet proceeds to die in a fire and i fly home with a hold full of candy.


though to be fair, when everyone is cloaked, its quite possible to spring traps on the trapper, guess in k-space its a little less "grey" i suppose?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-06-10 05:38:47 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.
You must be a miner!

1.) Minigames make it harder for bots to do it, thus they DO facilitate ISK gain, by giving players an advantage in securing the resources.

2.) COLLECTING RESOURCES detracts from social interaction. Making it entertaining makes it more fun for the time you have to do it, allowing you the resources to go have your social interaction. Or heck, teamwork mini-games. Like hacking.

3.) Minigames are a lot more enjoyable than collecting without mini-games.

So basically your whole post is pretty much the opposite of how I feel about mini-games in EVE.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#43 - 2013-06-10 06:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
(...)

2.) COLLECTING RESOURCES detracts from social interaction. (...)


I wonder how could that be, provided that mining only requires a modicum of attention, is quite a relaxed (and relaxing) activity and we got those pretty chat channels to entertain ourselves speaking with other players.

Perhaps your definition of "social interaction" is different than mine?
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#44 - 2013-06-10 08:16:12 UTC
At first I had the same idea as OP. Minigames in my EVE!? I absolutely detest mini-games and QTE's in my console games. Then I realized doing a minigame makes a person focus on the 'hack' for a while. It requires a person to expose themselves while trying to solve a puzzle. Will the person be elusive, slowly but steadily progress throught the minigame while spamming d-scan? Will he ask for some help from another pilot?

Having to put your attention anywhere else but space for a while rewards the social interaction you did beforehand: dude, wanna help me loot this site and keep an eye out for that neut in local? I have grown from healthy skepticism to carefull acceptance over the past few days.
Ylariana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-06-10 10:27:14 UTC
I have no problem with the mini game for hacking. I utterly DESPISE the loot spew.

In the majority of cans I hack I get what I knew was there. But the simple fact that having "won" the minigame I still have to jump through a pointless RNG hoop to actually get anything worth the time is really annoying.
Its like working a shift at work then being told that your pay-packet for that shift is in one of a dozen soon to explode wallets and you can only pick up 3.

The whole "bring a friend to help scoop cans" justification is completely contrary to the "we dont like you just sitting waiting to 'get bacon', we want some participation for the player" as well. Now instead waiting for a module to complete the hack, you have player B waiting for Player A to complete the hack. Since the Spew mechanic works the same in Hi as it does in Low the Spamming D-Scan task isnt appropriate for HiSec scanning so there isnt even THAT to justify this spew mechanic.

In short, keep the MiniGame, its justifiable and not that bad.
Dump the Loot Spew.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#46 - 2013-06-10 10:46:34 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
PI is a minigame and works fine in EVE.


PI is not a game. It a piece of irritatable dung.

What PI could have been is somewhere on a fanfest video. But today its a typical CCP project, delivered rushed, buggy, was re-developed then let to rot.Sad

-Crowd control (lol)
- Libraries
-Pollution of nearby districts
- Border wars
That and more was envisioned but what we got was dumb clicking on round pins on a planet. The only gaming part it creates is if you PI in low sec or null and you have to dodge those that want to shoot you.
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-06-10 11:20:25 UTC
Why not two types of cans or sites ?
One with medium loot and the old system, and the new system for expensive loot.
hulka Puhkastu
L.S.C CORPORATION
#48 - 2013-06-10 14:53:44 UTC
The Minigame is okey. It gives possebilitys for gank and everything. But what is syupid is that you can not predict where system nod is, so many times it is about luck. I mean there is no discription where the system nod is in that mini game. I want to solved based on information like stuff always was done. Not pure luck deciede where the system nod spawns in the mini game.

That is stupid.

Thx for your responses
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#49 - 2013-06-10 15:18:55 UTC
What minigame?


Please explain how in anyway the unlocking of the site containers is a game?

Game suggests you can lose.


Are you annoyed that you cannot complete this simple task?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#50 - 2013-06-10 15:34:00 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Game suggests you can lose.


and you can, so game it is
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#51 - 2013-06-10 15:34:55 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Game suggests you can lose.


and you can, so game it is


Youve lost at clicking on the screen?

How do you even load the game lol

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Wu-Tian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-06-10 17:47:42 UTC
Not quite sure what the definition of a mini/sub-game is, but I think that the only true mini-game in EVE-online atm are the tournaments.

Btw. I just read that Final Fantasy VII had 30+ minigames in it and that game was pretty populair. So it's not all that bad to have minigames in a rpg, but I do agree that mini-games should be optional.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-06-11 02:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.


You must be a miner!
P
Quote:


1.) Minigames make it harder for bots to do it, thus they DO facilitate ISK gain, by giving players an advantage in securing the resources.

Well they make it harder for players to do as well. So long as this is enjoyable, then harder could be good, I admit.
Quote:


2.) COLLECTING RESOURCES detracts from social interaction. Making it entertaining makes it more fun for the time you have to do it, allowing you the resources to go have your social interaction. Or heck, teamwork mini-games. Like hacking.

For many though, collecting resources isn't why they play the game, it's what they do so that they can afford to play the game the way that they want to, for these folks, mini-games only add to the frustration, taking away time from what they really want to do in eve.
Quote:


3.) Minigames are a lot more enjoyable than collecting without mini-games.

So basically your whole post is pretty much the opposite of how I feel about mini-games in EVE.


Yea, I hate mini-games. Some people don't. What?

Some people explore or mine simply to try and make isk so they can afford to pew pew. These folks often-times already spend as much or more time "working" for their isk, as they do "spending" their isk to play eve the way they want.

The part about this exploration change, and the potentially planned changes to mining, could make the "work" even more time consuming, require folks to learn new skills, pay attention, etc.... leaving less time for their "play". At least mining as it is know, allows the freedom to discuss and share pvp loadouts, and tell stories of previous glorious encounters... But wait, let's ******* play mine-craft infucking stead.

Go after botters all you like, but don't alienate a considerable portion of your playerbase while doing it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#54 - 2013-06-11 06:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Ris Dnalor wrote:
(...)

Yea, I hate mini-games. Some people don't. What?

Some people explore or mine simply to try and make isk so they can afford to pew pew. These folks often-times already spend as much or more time "working" for their isk, as they do "spending" their isk to play eve the way they want.

The part about this exploration change, and the potentially planned changes to mining, could make the "work" even more time consuming, require folks to learn new skills, pay attention, etc.... leaving less time for their "play". At least mining as it is know, allows the freedom to discuss and share pvp loadouts, and tell stories of previous glorious encounters... But wait, let's ******* play mine-craft infucking stead.

Go after botters all you like, but don't alienate a considerable portion of your playerbase while doing it.


What's interesting is that the same applies to many other acitvities. EVE is a sandbox and so it's easy that everyone got something that floats his boat, even if it's not something CCP foresaw.

Frankly, i can't see how mining alone could be the goal to anyone. A mean to a goal, sure. But not a goal itself. And as you point out, CCP may be considering that mining is too "boring" and must be more "engaging" albeit players who ACTUALLY MINE may have found their own solution, and making mining more "engaging" with a minigame may steal the time they use to reach their goal, whatever it is.

As i said, minigames provide a golden chance to deliver content to soloers and casuals, and that's because of their instanced nature. Negating them that instanced nature renders them useless to casuals. The bloody fixation to make everyfuckingthing "better in group" negates their usefulness to soloers. So essentially CCP invented the useless minigame, and are so proud of their fartchild that may extend it to destroy other soloable/casual friendly activities.

They never get it. May be sunlight deprivation or just a cultural artifact, but they never get it. Right when they're about to take the right path, they shake the wheel and get back to the old ways...
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-06-12 02:01:06 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
(...)

Yea, I hate mini-games. Some people don't. What?

Some people explore or mine simply to try and make isk so they can afford to pew pew. These folks often-times already spend as much or more time "working" for their isk, as they do "spending" their isk to play eve the way they want.

The part about this exploration change, and the potentially planned changes to mining, could make the "work" even more time consuming, require folks to learn new skills, pay attention, etc.... leaving less time for their "play". At least mining as it is know, allows the freedom to discuss and share pvp loadouts, and tell stories of previous glorious encounters... But wait, let's ******* play mine-craft infucking stead.

Go after botters all you like, but don't alienate a considerable portion of your playerbase while doing it.


What's interesting is that the same applies to many other acitvities. EVE is a sandbox and so it's easy that everyone got something that floats his boat, even if it's not something CCP foresaw.

Frankly, i can't see how mining alone could be the goal to anyone. A mean to a goal, sure. But not a goal itself. And as you point out, CCP may be considering that mining is too "boring" and must be more "engaging" albeit players who ACTUALLY MINE may have found their own solution, and making mining more "engaging" with a minigame may steal the time they use to reach their goal, whatever it is.

As i said, minigames provide a golden chance to deliver content to soloers and casuals, and that's because of their instanced nature. Negating them that instanced nature renders them useless to casuals. The bloody fixation to make everyfuckingthing "better in group" negates their usefulness to soloers. So essentially CCP invented the useless minigame, and are so proud of their fartchild that may extend it to destroy other soloable/casual friendly activities.

They never get it. May be sunlight deprivation or just a cultural artifact, but they never get it. Right when they're about to take the right path, they shake the wheel and get back to the old ways...


I agree that the soloable\casual activities should be preserved in some fashion. And I'm not entirely opposed to mini-games, because as you say, if properly implemented, like performing PI while safely cloaked or docked ( for most of the stuff ) would be a good addition to eve.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Dragnkat
The Chartered Company
#56 - 2013-06-13 06:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dragnkat
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If the player base does not want mini games, it should not RMT and support botting in any way.

Overall I disagree with the OP for more detailed reasons which are well echoed by others in these forums.

Brainless point and click is coming to an end. Thank God.


Seriously?

Cause if you ask me this minigame is just another example of the great exploration dumbdown of 2013. And the great gankfest of 2013 since (like ore site changes) EVE just got even easier for the gankers, while being made a royal PITA for anyone who prefers activities other then brainless gank blob pew pew.

Then again given that the goal of every change in oddessy seems to be screw over anyone not pvp'ing, par for the course on CCP's part.

Click click click oh core! Please explain to me how that was any different then, click turn on module, wait for actual loot instead of this new exploding can everywhere horse hockey. Aside from the fact these changes have added more brainless clicking to hack, and then even MORE brainless clicking to catch the cans.

All this minigame is? It's a glorified time sink. (which for some of us doesn't equal money but is in short supply before RL obligations) And no different then waiting for a module cycle. If anything to me it's more annoying because of the many negative reasons others have given. Not the least of which is again it's advantage gankers since you're stuck looking at this boring after the first 5 times minigame instead of being aware of your surroundings with dscan or local watching.

And yes haulie, we've all seen your pretty pic and your incessant blather about this in every thread too, guess what, still don't care. The fact we can cargo scan for the good loot, or the fact we should look for the right can to click (parts or data over scrap) doesn't make this new system any better, and sure as hell doesn't increase "social interaction" unless your idea of interaction is being jumped by gankers. Or feeling frustrated as half the loot vaporizes.

Total one step forward (removing rats) then two steps back by adding this mindless clickfest minigame and loot pinata bull that is about as unEVE as you can get.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#57 - 2013-06-13 06:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Dragnkat wrote:
(...)
All this minigame is? It's a glorified time sink. (which for some of us doesn't equal money but is in short supply before RL obligations) And no different then waiting for a module cycle. If anything to me it's more annoying because of the many negative reasons others have given. Not the least of which is again it's advantage gankers since you're stuck looking at this boring after the first 5 times minigame instead of being aware of your surroundings with dscan or local watching. (....).


Being a time sink it's not bad in itself; what's bad is that such timesink is implemented in a way that rather than allow to use sparee time shards, makes you waste valuable time shards.

WIN: "got 20 minutes and 10 containers to hack, let's log in, queue skills, hack some containers and call it a day. THANK YOU CCP!!"

LOSE: "You MUST find them, MUST be first to jump in, MUST not be bothered, MUST spend x time hacking, MUST succeed hacking, MUST chase the bloody splatter of rewards, MUST not be bothered, MUST find something valuable, and MUST convince yourself that it was worth spending a valuable hour to get a few stupid datacores"

CCP twist: "Oh, and you MUST not lose your ship in the above process"

CCP, skillfully dodging good sense since 1997. Roll
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#58 - 2013-06-13 09:56:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Game suggests you can lose.


and you can, so game it is


Youve lost at clicking on the screen?

How do you even load the game lol


I've lost a few 0.0 mainframes before. This is also with Hacking V, T2 Codebreaker, and a explo frig. Since the mini game is random it is quite easy to fail, if you hit a couple suppressors or regen nodes without any utilities to combat them you're screwed.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#59 - 2013-06-13 10:54:00 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Game suggests you can lose.


and you can, so game it is


Youve lost at clicking on the screen?

How do you even load the game lol


I've lost a few 0.0 mainframes before. This is also with Hacking V, T2 Codebreaker, and a explo frig. Since the mini game is random it is quite easy to fail, if you hit a couple suppressors or regen nodes without any utilities to combat them you're screwed.



Then you are doing something seriously wrong


My explor. Alt just flies a Buzzard with a Relic Analyser 1 and Hacking 3 and has never failed this task.

Im being honest here, I have no idea what you are doing wrong, but its obviously something

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#60 - 2013-06-13 11:05:46 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:



It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )




I just had to give up here, at the beginning of this rant with the above bolded quoteage.

Your approach and attitude towards the game is already terrible from the outset if you believe item #1 or #3.

These mini-games were added for purpose. The purpose of making RMT more difficult, something which truly ruins EVE ind it's famous player-driven economy.

You can have your attitude about this, but all it is doing is encouraging more RMT and exploitation of the game mechanics.

Blame the world and it's people, and leave CCP's efforts to be a policeman, which they absolutely must do, out of it.

EVE is the only MMOPRG I have ever even touched, but I've seen no shortage of other ones out there the past 20 years. Why don't you give them a whirl ???

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882