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T2 ammo in Faction/Officer weapons!
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#1 - 2013-06-09 16:20:17 UTC
The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again.

My solution?

1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types.
2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills.
3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much.
3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons.

There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-09 16:41:59 UTC
you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon

nothing needs to be changed.

Art of Explosions
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#3 - 2013-06-09 17:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon

nothing needs to be changed.


And where does this change in my OP?

Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns.

You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-06-09 17:28:13 UTC
Paikis wrote:
The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again.

My solution?

1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types.
2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills.
3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much.
3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons.

There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo.

I support this.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-06-09 18:25:05 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon

nothing needs to be changed.


And where does this change in my OP?

Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns.

You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?


Cause they dont require training time just ISK

as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same.

Art of Explosions
Kay Ahn
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-06-09 18:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kay Ahn
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same.

But in Paikis' proposition, when you decide to spent both money AND time, you would have slightly superior option.

Paikis: Sounds like a good idea.
Jay Kreutzer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-06-09 19:00:58 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon

nothing needs to be changed.


And where does this change in my OP?

Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns.

You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?


Cause they dont require training time just ISK

as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same.


i find it funny someone in a learning-based corp is incapable of reading.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-06-09 19:08:07 UTC
Jay Kreutzer wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
you substitute training time for a slightly inferior weapon

nothing needs to be changed.


And where does this change in my OP?

Don't have the spec skills? You can still use Faction/Officer guns... but no T2 ammo for you. Got the skills? OK, you can use T2 ammo in your faction guns.

You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?


Cause they dont require training time just ISK

as I said before, you have a choice: money or time. Both will end up being roughly the same.


i find it funny someone in a learning-based corp is incapable of reading.


I find it funny that someone in a non-learning based corp is incapable of reading

why has my corp got anything to do with my reading comprehension? Did I join EVE University to improve my English skills? Your corp certainly hasn't helped you in that regard.

@Kay

Because then this game becomes: who has the most time and money and that's not what eve is about. There's a reason only a certain amount of skills affect the modules and ships you use because otherwise new players have no roles here.

A new player can drop 5 plex and buy some faction things to be on par with a vet but the vet gets the advantage of having the same stats but at a much reduced cost because he invested TIME into it.

If the vet had the option to drop a few bil on officer weapons AND have the same advantages of his millions of SP, how fair is that to the people who will never catch up in SP because of the game design?

Art of Explosions
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-09 21:03:51 UTC
Paikis wrote:
You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?


Ah, here we have the "if it costs more it should be better" argument. Well no, it shouldn't, sorry, sometimes paying more really doesn't get you better stuff, just more expensive stuff..

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#10 - 2013-06-09 21:58:15 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Paikis wrote:
You spend a lot of ISK for faction/officer guns why shouldn't they be slightly better than T2?


Ah, here we have the "if it costs more it should be better" argument. Well no, it shouldn't, sorry, sometimes paying more really doesn't get you better stuff, just more expensive stuff..


Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

No, no. You're right. Here let me pay 200x the amount for something that is patently worse... said no one ever.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-06-09 22:29:15 UTC
it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins)

it's just spending a different resource

stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it.

Art of Explosions
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2013-06-09 22:48:01 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins)

it's just spending a different resource

stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it.


First, Faction Tachyons aren't better. They in fact do less damage with the same ammo, and can't use the T2 stuff (which admittedly isn't very good for Tachyons). They do however use less cap, which if you're bad is a good thing I guess.

Secondly, why are you so butt hurt about this suggestion? How does it affect you? Why make it personal?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-06-09 23:00:18 UTC
where have I made it personal? I've just been putting across objective points against it because I do not think it's a good idea

Art of Explosions
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#14 - 2013-06-09 23:14:07 UTC
Paikis wrote:
The cost of a T2 Mega Pulse Laser is about 3.6m. The cost of an Imperial Navy Mega Pulse Laser is 75m. One of these guns is flat out better if you have the skills to fit it. Why? Because of T2 ammo. Ignoring the fact that Scorch is amazingly good, this applies to almost every other weapons system as well. The T2 ammo is so much better for most things, that if you can fit the T2 Gun/Launcher then you never look at the faction versions again.

My solution?

1. Faction and Officer weapons can fit the T2 ammo types.
2. Faction and Officer weapons can still be fit with rubbish skills.
3. Faction and Officer weapons should be better than T2, but not by much.
3. T2 ammo itself now requires the specialisation skills in order to plug it into your weapons.

There we go. T2 guns are still pretty good, and even still the 'standard' but if you can use them, but you want to spend a little bit more to get some performance increase, you now can, without losing access to T2 ammo.

As long as the same training requirements to fit T2 Guns/Launchers to the ship would be required to use the T2 ammo in faction+ Guns/Launchers then I'd support this. That's the main reason I haven't supported anyone bringing this up before, they all want to have **** skills while using superior Guns/Launchers with T2 ammo that have lower fitting reqs.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-09 23:55:53 UTC
The only thing that is wrong with faction weapons is the stupid high cost. Functionally they are fine.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ginger Barbarella
#16 - 2013-06-10 00:56:40 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
it's not worse cause you don't have to drop a months training time and in some cases they're just better (faction tachys on nightmare/paladins)

it's just spending a different resource

stop being a baby, you can't have your cake and eat it.


Do your EveUni leash holders know you're being a d-bag on the Forums??

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#17 - 2013-06-10 01:06:50 UTC
Functionally they are fine, what is holding them back is the cost, make it cheaper, problem solved. Btw, some faction weapons do have their tiny niches but people rarely use them because of their cost, making them straight up better isn't a good idea.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-06-10 03:11:04 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Functionally they are fine, what is holding them back is the cost, make it cheaper, problem solved. Btw, some faction weapons do have their tiny niches but people rarely use them because of their cost, making them straight up better isn't a good idea.


What about removing the tag cost to buy them off the LP store? It would even act as an isk sink for the game no?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#19 - 2013-06-10 03:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Maybe due to silly price tag it would be ok if faction guns have bigger clip size(not talking amarr here obviously).

That way they wouldn't step in t2 rank directly..that is talking faction guns and beside lower fitting req you can overheat faction stuff like a baws while t2 will lol burn out much faster.

Now we come to officer guns..well they do so much dmg over t2 that it is simple scary i don't see them in need of any help at all...

Price on the other hand is different issue altogether.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#20 - 2013-06-10 05:16:34 UTC
I've certainly seen worse proposals, but I'm still not comfortable with it. If we're sticking to the one simple change -- faction guns/launchers can use T2 ammo -- than the major underlying problems are actually exacerbated and nothing is solved at all.

Which is to say, faction guns will still underperform compared to T2 under almost all circumstances (fringe case for CN rails duly noted; tachs get a boost they don't really need and won't really use).

Launchers will shift suddenly and dramatically to "must have CN HMLsss!!!!!1one". Or cruise launchers. Whatever the cool mission kids have settled on these days. To say nothing for the fact that short range faction launchers would suddenly go into vogue (yay for CN torp launchers loaded with javelin on every half-decent Golem....)

I dunno. It seems like it's part of a solution, but alone it doesn't address the actual problems. Which are rather messier to untangle.
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