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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2011-11-06 20:47:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
but with all the extra training you have to do to fly Minmatar (a LOT of extra training), nice to have at least some subcap ships on par with other races.



This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.


It is not - at all - a myth. I have a character that can fly a ******* perfect Raven. Oh, and a bunch of other **** like freighters and stuff. I have another character that can only fly combat Minnie ships. He's got 75M pure combat SP and still doesn't have a perfect Typhoon.

*******.

Still.

-Liang

still so dumb and biased ... dont be such a noob liangg
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#302 - 2011-11-06 21:06:42 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
but with all the extra training you have to do to fly Minmatar (a LOT of extra training), nice to have at least some subcap ships on par with other races.



This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.


It is not - at all - a myth. I have a character that can fly a ******* perfect Raven. Oh, and a bunch of other **** like freighters and stuff. I have another character that can only fly combat Minnie ships. He's got 75M pure combat SP and still doesn't have a perfect Typhoon.

*******.

Still.

-Liang

still so dumb and biased ... dont be such a noob liangg


I'm not saying I can't put together an alright Typhoon... I'm saying that the Typhoon (very specifically) has a much higher SP cap than any other T1 BS in the game. Any claim that Caldari requires more SP overall is just.... well, ******* hilarious.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#303 - 2011-11-06 21:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm not saying I can't put together an alright Typhoon... I'm saying that the Typhoon (very specifically) has a much higher SP cap than any other T1 BS in the game. Any claim that Caldari requires more SP overall is just.... well, ******* hilarious.

-Liang

So because it is so hard to fit out one Minmatar Ship they are the hard race. Roll

It is not even there Races best Battleship, the Maelstrom is so much more versatile on top of being easier to train then most other Races ships.

All of there good ships are quite low SP.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#304 - 2011-11-06 21:19:30 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm not saying I can't put together an alright Typhoon... I'm saying that the Typhoon (very specifically) has a much higher SP cap than any other T1 BS in the game. Any claim that Caldari requires more SP overall is just.... well, ******* hilarious.

-Liang

So because it is so hard to fit out one Minmatar Ship they are the hard race. Roll

It is not even there Races best Battleship, the Maelstrom is so much more versatile on top of being easier to train then most other Races ships.


A few comments:
- The Maelstrom isn't the best Minnie BS.
- The Maelstrom isn't the easiest BS to train.
- If you're willing to accept T1 guns, lasers dramatically beat out all projectile based BS's.
- The race as a whole is harder than the other races. The Cyclone is another example of a ship that follows the same traditional Minmatar schizophrenic design pattern that pushes its SP cap higher than its peers.

Basically: stop trying to push an anti Minmatar agenda and start pushing a pro game balance agenda. I literally have no vested interest in Minmatar (or any other race) being the best, but I'm damn sure not going to stand by while a bunch of clowns with no knowledge of the game ask for unnecessary nerfs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2011-11-06 21:28:01 UTC
Oh no there is matar bs which can be fitted with everything... so you actually have to train all of them out bruhuhuh...
not that one actual fit need much less sp , but still you want to fly it with every bossible fit at lvl5 , yeah totally sp intensive.
liang fails totally
Alara IonStorm
#306 - 2011-11-06 21:29:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments:
- The Maelstrom isn't the best Minnie BS.

Sure it is. Large Fleets, Active Solo/Gang and PvE. Sure the Phoon has some Niches but the Maelstrom just has so many roles.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- The Maelstrom isn't the easiest BS to train.

Not any harder then other Races Battleships.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- If you're willing to accept T1 guns, lasers dramatically beat out all projectile based BS's.

If you are willing to accept T1 anything T2 Lasers dramatically beat it out. Unlike Scorch you can still use Arty and Auto's with diminished success until you get T2.
Liang Nuren wrote:

- The race as a whole is harder than the other races. The Cyclone is another example of a ship that follows the same traditional Minmatar schizophrenic design pattern that pushes its SP cap higher than its peers.

I know but the Hurricane firmly in place as the second best Battlecruiser in the game is very ready and willing to make up for that.
Liang Nuren wrote:

Basically: stop trying to push an anti Minmatar agenda and start pushing a pro game balance agenda. I literally have no vested interest in Minmatar (or any other race) being the best, but I'm damn sure not going to stand by while a bunch of clowns with no knowledge of the game ask for unnecessary nerfs.
-Liang

Basically I stopped doing that, my opinion is known and I don't feel like arguing it anymore. I am only speaking to the myth that Minmatar is difficult to train. There Best Ships are low skill, getting good with this race does not take a more time then any others. Just because there are a few ships that are rarely used that take more time to master does not make the race hard to train.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#307 - 2011-11-06 21:52:03 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
but with all the extra training you have to do to fly Minmatar (a LOT of extra training), nice to have at least some subcap ships on par with other races.



This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.

They require about as much as any other race. 1400mm Arty can be used in Fleets with Meta 4 while you need T2 for Scorch. Missiles are not a priority because there best ships do not use them. You don't need to train Armor early on because Shield is there real strength. Base Speed means you actually need to train less Nav skills in the beginning. Everything else(Support, Drones, ect) are on par with other races. This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular.



Don't be Min-hating morons. Of course Minmatar requires more skill training.
If you don't crosstrain, you only get to fly half their ships.

Missiles are not a priority? Please. How many Typhoons actually go the gunnery route? God forbid you want to fly the Nag. And never mind the fact that missiles are intended to provide optional extra firepower on many ships, when neuts are not appropriate.

Oh, and did I mention that Trajectory Analysis (+falloff, only really useful for Projectiles) is a Rank 5 skill? Corresponding Laser skill is only rank 2. And there is a BIG difference in volley damage between Meta 4 and T2 1400MM. U can gank a Hulk with T2, Meta 4 doesn't always cut it.

Shield tanking is fine, unless you want to fly the Rupture, most Hurricanes, Typhoons or Tempests. (And most of you would argue, thats OK, Mins shouldn't be flying BS or cap size ships anyway. Roll)

Everyone trains Nav skills, but its twice as important for Mins - plenty of hit and run ships that live or die by maintaining range. Cynabal, Vagabond, Rapier, shield Canes and Tempests. A webbed Vagabond is a dead Vagabond.

Don't want to bother with drones? Well Minmatar ships get the 2nd largest drone bays behind Gallente, so you are screwing yourself if you don't train them properly.

In short, spare me your whining. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Flying the Minmatar race's ships require a far wider skill set than any other race. "Oh, but you can fly half of their ships just fine" is not a valid argument.
Alara IonStorm
#308 - 2011-11-06 22:09:00 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Missiles are not a priority? Please. How many Typhoons actually go the gunnery route? God forbid you want to fly the Nag. And never mind the fact that missiles are intended to provide optional extra firepower on many ships, when neuts are not appropriate.

Roll Typhoons are not necessary to be good at Minmatar. The Naglfar Dreadnaught is only really important if you are part of the 20% of Players that want to train them and the 1% that use Dreads. As for extra firepower very few Minmatar ships go the Missile route at all.
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Oh, and did I mention that Trajectory Analysis (+falloff, only really useful for Projectiles) is a Rank 5 skill? Corresponding Laser skill is only rank 2. And there is a BIG difference in volley damage between Meta 4 and T2 1400MM. U can gank a Hulk with T2, Meta 4 doesn't always cut it.

Bigger difference between T2 Lasers which can not gank a Hulk at all.
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Shield tanking is fine, unless you want to fly the Rupture, most Hurricanes, Typhoons or Tempests. (And most of you would argue, thats OK, Mins shouldn't be flying BS or cap size ships anyway. Roll)

Rutures, Hurricanes and Tempests work fine as Shield Ships. Basically the Phoon and that is about it.
Herr Wilkus wrote:

Everyone trains Nav skills, but its twice as important for Mins - plenty of hit and run ships that live or die by maintaining range. Cynabal, Vagabond, Rapier, shield Canes and Tempests. A webbed Vagabond is a dead Vagabond. Don't want to bother with drones? Well Minmatar ships get the 2nd largest drone bays behind Gallente, so you are screwing yourself if you don't train them properly.

Yet they are still faster then other races equivalents without max skills.

As for Drones. The Typhoon is the only Minmatar Subcap that can field a full set of Heavies. Besides that they have no serious Drone Ships
Herr Wilkus wrote:

In short, spare me your whining. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Flying the Minmatar race's ships require a far wider skill set than any other race. "Oh, but you can fly half of their ships just fine" is not a valid argument.

Bull, you can use over 90% of there ships without Armor, Missiles or Heavy Drones just fine. Gallente needs Drones and Hybrids, Caldari needs Missiles and Hybrids and Amarr needs T2 Lasers.

This Minmatar victim complex is silly. There lofty grids, high speed and still useful Meta Weapons make them on par with other races.

In Short Spare me your Whining you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Flying Minmatar effectively requires as much training as any other race. But you can't fly the Typhoon and Dreadnaught is not a valid argument.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#309 - 2011-11-06 22:15:26 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

In Short Spare me your Whining you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Flying Minmatar effectively requires as much training as any other race. But you can't fly the Typhoon and Dreadnaught is not a valid argument.


Its more than just the Typhoon and dreads - its all the ships with split weapons systems and high "utility" slot count.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#310 - 2011-11-06 22:19:13 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Its more than just the Typhoon and dreads - its all the ships with split weapons systems and high "utility" slot count.

-Liang

The Cyclone and the Phoon Basically.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#311 - 2011-11-06 22:20:12 UTC
I'll take a cyclone with (neut) utility slots over a brutix, ferox, or prophecy any day of the week, tbh.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#312 - 2011-11-06 22:25:16 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I'll take a cyclone with (neut) utility slots over a brutix, ferox, or prophecy any day of the week, tbh.


The Brutix and Ferox could be really exciting if the hybrid boosts go the right way. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#313 - 2011-11-06 22:28:11 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Brutix and Ferox could be really exciting if the hybrid boosts go the right way. :)

-Liang

Small Blaster Spec 4: 6 Hours 27 Min then Medium Blaster Spec 1 goes in the Que.

Here is hoping it goes well.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#314 - 2011-11-06 22:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Liang Nuren wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I'll take a cyclone with (neut) utility slots over a brutix, ferox, or prophecy any day of the week, tbh.


The Brutix and Ferox could be really exciting if the hybrid boosts go the right way. :)

-Liang


I noticed you've been absent the hybrid changes thread. =/

GO!

(Sufficed to say, i've been on sisi and while they are going the "right way," they're certainly not seeming to realize just how far they need to go. Baby steps is probably an overstatement. Let your voice be heard - again - if you actually care.)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#315 - 2011-11-06 22:30:40 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The Brutix and Ferox could be really exciting if the hybrid boosts go the right way. :)

-Liang

Small Blaster Spec 4: 6 Hours 27 Min then Medium Blaster Spec 1 goes in the Que.

Here is hoping it goes well.


Heh, both large specs finished for me like 3-4 years ago. Here's hoping.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2011-11-06 22:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
omg , why the hell would i orbit at 2km when my weapon has 60km falloff with 6+ km optimal? pls tell me, btw who would use hail vs smaller targets? looks like you have absolutly no idea how pvp works


Perhaps because I specifically don't want the Abaddon who I'm orbiting to track me? Roll

I'm just saying, Tornados already track things horribly, and saying that Hail makes them overpowered is just silly.

Especially when, by your own admission, you're going to be fighting from "60km + 6," which is far out of hail range anyway. Try barrage, bro?

Edit: Okay, I know you're going to be a nit-pickey tard because that's what you do, so let me rephrase. A moving tornado has horrible tracking. Technically, a stationary tornado has the same tracking as any other matar BS, but sitting stationary in a tornado is foolish.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#317 - 2011-11-06 22:56:04 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
I'm just saying, Tornados already track things horribly


Come again?
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2011-11-06 22:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
I'm just saying, Tornados already track things horribly


Come again?


One web, one tracking enhancer, 800mm guns, moving at 1600m/s.

If you're not moving at 1600m/s, then you're getting pinned down by a lone rifter who will solo you, or you are taking full damage from nearly everything because of LSE sig bloom.

Oh, and getting driven off the field by a Drake because of your absolutely terrible tank. Can't forget that.

Is it OP in comparison to the other tier 3 BC's? Sure, maybe, I don't know. But justifying that Minmatar as a whole is getting buffed to a further extent than Gallente, just because of the Tornado - which is still subject to change - and the Hail buff - which nobody is going to use anyway - is just stupid.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#319 - 2011-11-06 23:01:33 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
but with all the extra training you have to do to fly Minmatar (a LOT of extra training), nice to have at least some subcap ships on par with other races.



This is a complete myth. The most SP-intensive race is easily Caldari. Minmatar compete with Amarr for being least SP-intensive.

They require about as much as any other race. 1400mm Arty can be used in Fleets with Meta 4 while you need T2 for Scorch. Missiles are not a priority because there best ships do not use them. You don't need to train Armor early on because Shield is there real strength. Base Speed means you actually need to train less Nav skills in the beginning. Everything else(Support, Drones, ect) are on par with other races. This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular.


In short, spare me your whining. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Flying the Minmatar race's ships require a far wider skill set than any other race. "Oh, but you can fly half of their ships just fine" is not a valid argument.


It's not just nonsense, it's stupid nonsense.

Caldari has three full lines of weapons - hybrids, missiles and ECM. Minmatar requires projectiles, which are equal to hybrids Apart from the lack of need for Controlled Bursts, of course. The Minmatar requirement for missile skills cannot be compared with Caldari's, nor can Minmatar's requirement for ewar skills. Full use of both races require skills for armour and shield tanks. Only a single Minmatar subcapital requires heavy/sentry drone skills, so let's put that equal to the Caldari ewar skills, and that's generous. Comments about Minmatar requiring more navigation skills are specious, given the high base speeds and "better than blasters at being blasters" theme of ACs.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#320 - 2011-11-06 23:11:40 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

Is it OP in comparison to the other tier 3 BC's? Sure, maybe, I don't know. But justifying that Minmatar as a whole is getting buffed to a further extent than Gallente, just because of the Tornado - which is still subject to change - and the Hail buff - which nobody is going to use anyway - is just stupid.


This would be the operative question. The problems you are describing apply to all the new BCs. I agree, using the new ship to make a case for minmatar nerfs is silly (there are plenty of existing minmatar ships to base those arguments on already). Having said that, you've been testing as much or more than I have so I can only assume you realize that, at present, the Tornado is head and shoulders above all but the oracle and even compared to the oracle it's probably got an edge.

My point was simply that, insisting that it had problems applying dps in relationship to the other new bc's would be fallacious. The worst-case scenario is there for your evaluation, it's called the naga and the talos isn't far behind.