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My thoughts on eve and mini-games...

Author
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-06-08 06:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
I've been watching some videos from the fanfest. some of the stuff was terri-bad.



It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )



Now consider the mini-game approach that seems to be so attractive to CCP developers.


1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.



So stop the mini-games. Eve is a game, and it's o.k. on it's own.



Everything you change / add within eve-online should be balanced against these basic tenets.

* Can you make decent isk for the effort put in?
* Can you socially interact with others while doing it?
* Does a reasonable percentage of the player base find the activity enjoyable?

Ideally, 2 out of 3 would make a great addition to eve.



In 10+ years, almost everyone that sticks with eve, does so because of the social interaction.

Mini-games certainly wont' help and in some cases they will reduce interaction.

( -- to be clear, a poker table would be a good mini-game, so long as it doesn't produce tritanium from thin air, and so long as you're playing against other players, not the computer -- )

my 2 isk.

Ris Dnalor

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-08 06:51:10 UTC
Minigames should be exterminated in any game with RPG in his name.
My character has skills, use them. I hate minigames. They're always bad, repetitives and awfully boring. In fact, i don't do exploration anymore, and will stop to mine too if it's a minigame.
They're really the plague of today games. I want the possibility to skip them with an overskilled character, even if the training takes twice the time.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#3 - 2013-06-08 07:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I've been watching some videos from the fanfest. some of the stuff was terri-bad.



It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )



Now consider the mini-game approach that seems to be so attractive to CCP developers.


1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.



So stop the mini-games. Eve is a game, and it's o.k. on it's own.



Everything you change / add within eve-online should be balanced against these basic tenets.

* Can you make decent isk for the effort put in?
* Can you socially interact with others while doing it?
* Does a reasonable percentage of the player base find the activity enjoyable?

Ideally, 2 out of 3 would make a great addition to eve.



In 10+ years, almost everyone that sticks with eve, does so because of the social interaction.

Mini-games certainly wont' help and in some cases they will reduce interaction.

( -- to be clear, a poker table would be a good mini-game, so long as it doesn't produce tritanium from thin air, and so long as you're playing against other players, not the computer -- )

my 2 isk.

Ris Dnalor


Minigames are a nice solution to provide content to soloers and casuals. Of course, that implies that minigames must be soloable and allow casual gameplay, two things in which the hacking minigame sucks miserably.

But then, this is CCP and they're not known for "getting it". CCP's concept of a lollipop is something with a 2 foot thorny stick that will bend randomly and must be eaten with an arm tied to your back, before a grizzly bear looses itself from a rottten string... and then the flavor of the lollipop is Brussels sprouts.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-06-08 07:22:26 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.


And if that happens it's bad design.

EQII the tradeskill mini-game is easy enough to not interfere with both socializing and even doing rush orders. Players will be in their guild halls, in VOIP and doing just fine.

Problem with the mini-game so far released is: EvE is a PvP game and it can happen anywhere. Such a mini-game will have to be small, and where a player can watch over his shoulder. Something like keypads. Spend too long at it, it turns it into a cannon fodder activity, and that's a waste of time and money.

In PvP, KISS principle applies. When players don't loot drops in fear of not seeing the enemy (Black Legion loot policy for example -- 2bil worth of goods can goto waste, but they're not stopping to loot it, they'll destroy it instead)...yeah...keep it simple.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#5 - 2013-06-08 07:25:12 UTC
If the player base does not want mini games, it should not RMT and support botting in any way.

Overall I disagree with the OP for more detailed reasons which are well echoed by others in these forums.

Brainless point and click is coming to an end. Thank God.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#6 - 2013-06-08 07:56:19 UTC
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#7 - 2013-06-08 13:50:49 UTC
Garresh wrote:
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now


And that's good because...? Roll
Xervish Krin
Intaki Fine Stationery Solutions
#8 - 2013-06-08 14:13:06 UTC
Kyle Valentine wrote:
Minigames should be exterminated in any game with RPG in his name.
My character has skills, use them. I hate minigames. They're always bad, repetitives and awfully boring. In fact, i don't do exploration anymore, and will stop to mine too if it's a minigame.
They're really the plague of today games. I want the possibility to skip them with an overskilled character, even if the training takes twice the time.


How the hell is watching a module cycle worse that clicking through a short game? You think things should be pure RPG, with everything depending on your skills?

Hell, let's remove ship combat then! It's basically a minigame, and besides, eve shouldn't be about player skill but character skill! The ships should approach each other and then the player with lower skills should explode. None of that dirty casual **** for my Eve!
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-08 14:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Barrel
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I've been watching some videos from the fanfest. some of the stuff was terri-bad.



It has been my experience that there are three driving factors to do anything in eve.

1. to make isk.

2. to socially interact with other players.

3. to do it because you enjoy it immensely. ( this often requires doing a lot of # 1. to afford it )



Now consider the mini-game approach that seems to be so attractive to CCP developers.


1) Mini-games do not facilitate the making of isk. People don't want to have to work harder to get it. ever.

2) Mini-games detract from social interaction with other players, because it requires more focus on the task and less focus on interacting socially.

3) Mini-games for enjoyment? I suppose it's possible. Folks that just want to enjoy a mini-game typically don't want someone else to be able to trample thru their mini-game-garden, and this is eve... plus eve isn't free and mini-games kinda are free.



So stop the mini-games. Eve is a game, and it's o.k. on it's own.



Everything you change / add within eve-online should be balanced against these basic tenets.

* Can you make decent isk for the effort put in?
* Can you socially interact with others while doing it?
* Does a reasonable percentage of the player base find the activity enjoyable?

Ideally, 2 out of 3 would make a great addition to eve.



In 10+ years, almost everyone that sticks with eve, does so because of the social interaction.

Mini-games certainly wont' help and in some cases they will reduce interaction.

( -- to be clear, a poker table would be a good mini-game, so long as it doesn't produce tritanium from thin air, and so long as you're playing against other players, not the computer -- )

my 2 isk.

Ris Dnalor


dude, what are you talking about? I'm loving where the mini-games-thing is going. Just imagine you and me in a certain future, both owning space pets and we do mini-games together! pet vs pet, which also implies social interaction.. An amazing future awaits us.
MotherSammy
Clan Sammy Trade Empire
#10 - 2013-06-08 16:13:47 UTC
Xervish Krin wrote:


How the hell is watching a module cycle worse that clicking through a short game? You think things should be pure RPG, with everything depending on your skills?

Hell, let's remove ship combat then! It's basically a minigame, and besides, eve shouldn't be about player skill but character skill! The ships should approach each other and then the player with lower skills should explode. None of that dirty casual **** for my Eve!


Fking this.

Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#11 - 2013-06-08 16:19:13 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
...


Minigames are a nice solution to provide content to soloers and casuals. Of course, that implies that minigames must be soloable and allow casual gameplay, two things in which the hacking minigame sucks miserably.

But then, this is CCP and they're not known for "getting it". CCP's concept of a lollipop is something with a 2 foot thorny stick that will bend randomly and must be eaten with an arm tied to your back, before a grizzly bear looses itself from a rottten string... and then the flavor of the lollipop is Brussels sprouts.


If you want to play mini games go the app store on your phone...
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#12 - 2013-06-08 16:20:43 UTC
Xervish Krin wrote:
Kyle Valentine wrote:
Minigames should be exterminated in any game with RPG in his name.
My character has skills, use them. I hate minigames. They're always bad, repetitives and awfully boring. In fact, i don't do exploration anymore, and will stop to mine too if it's a minigame.
They're really the plague of today games. I want the possibility to skip them with an overskilled character, even if the training takes twice the time.


How the hell is watching a module cycle worse that clicking through a short game? You think things should be pure RPG, with everything depending on your skills?

Hell, let's remove ship combat then! It's basically a minigame, and besides, eve shouldn't be about player skill but character skill! The ships should approach each other and then the player with lower skills should explode. None of that dirty casual **** for my Eve!


Because at the end of the old module cycle you got a loot container, now the loot spews out and disintegrates...

It is dumb.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#13 - 2013-06-08 17:10:54 UTC
I am an immortal capsuleer. The universe trembles before me.

I play Jenga for my lootz!
MotherSammy
Clan Sammy Trade Empire
#14 - 2013-06-08 17:26:47 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
I am an immortal capsuleer. The universe trembles before me.

I play Jenga for my lootz!


Whack-a-mole would be a more apt comparison.
Solhild
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-06-08 17:30:36 UTC
OP makes a good point and I agree.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#16 - 2013-06-08 17:51:17 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Garresh wrote:
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now


And that's good because...? Roll


More chance of combat. More chance for socializing. The distraction and time investment ups the risk of a human encounter, whether at gunpoint or not.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-06-09 04:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
Garresh wrote:
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now




While technically true ( the underliney-bits ) it's just another example of new-features added to eve that people help each other learn. -- It has nothing to do with the fact that it's a mini-game.

I could argue whether or not the mini-game requires player skill, but again, that's not what I'm talking about. The fact is if I want to do something in eve, I do not want to have to play mine-craft to accomplish it.


And as far as the distraction, well, it sounds like you're arguing my point. The folks that do enjoy the mini-game, will not continue to do so, if it is as you say that "forced player interaction at gunpoint" is truly happening all over new eden right now.

They might do it for the loot, if it's good enough, but they won't do it for the enjoyment, and they won't do it for social interaction. The social interaction of which you speak is likely not happening DURING the mini-game, unless I misunderstand your definitions of "player-skill" and "distractions".

Thanks for the reply,

Ris Dnalor

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#18 - 2013-06-09 04:32:15 UTC
MotherSammy wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
I am an immortal capsuleer. The universe trembles before me.

I play Jenga for my lootz!


Whack-a-mole would be a more apt comparison.

Actually it is Jenga followed by Whack-a-mole.

CCP has skipped the amusement park and went straight for Chuck E Cheese instead.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#19 - 2013-06-09 07:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Garresh wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Garresh wrote:
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now


And that's good because...? Roll


More chance of combat. More chance for socializing. The distraction and time investment ups the risk of a human encounter, whether at gunpoint or not.


You're assuming that players generally want to...

...socialize.
...fight.

And that EVE does not provide ample (ample as in "80% of the bloody mechanics") possibilities for that.

You know, some people ("some" as in "an awful amount of players") have LIMITED time and that seriously hampers the abiltiy to "socialize" and "fight". Just yesterday, a buddy went AFK without warning because lil' sister needed help. Please share with us how attending such RL events is compatible with sitting by a bullseye evreyfrigginbody knows it's there right since they enter the system, then tinkering with a timed AI event until you start chasing the product of your time, effort and time, specially TIME. TIME is a valuable player commodity CCP essentially disregards, mechanic after mechanic, iteration upon iteration, and expansion upon expansion.

Exploration takes time. Finding hacking sites takes time. Hacking takes time. And most people in the real world are more likely to have 3x 20 minutes, than 1x 60 minutes.

Yesterday i spent one hour exploring. Man, it is fast now. Scanned 4 systems, located 3 wormholes, 6 anomalies, 4 gravitic sites... wow. Didn't find any hackable site, though. And all in all, I got like 600,000 ISK because it was 6 anomalies (5 empty) and 4 gravitic sites (all 4 holding carp) and WH... well, i am not doing WH.

600,000 ISK is about what I get mining for 4 minutes. And guess what? I can socialize and talk with friends while i mine, even if they're 30 jumps away or their lil' sister needs some help. Is exploring funnier than mining? Mechanically yes, but it's not specially rewarding as a time investment.

As i said, minigames are a nice solution to provide content to soloers and casuals. But that implies that minigames must be soloable and allow casual gameplay, two things in which the hacking minigame sucks miserably, as is usual with EVE.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#20 - 2013-06-09 08:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Ris Dnalor wrote:
Garresh wrote:
The discussion of the mini game and optimal strategy has promoted social interaction. I've crossed paths and made contacts with people precisely because I understood the mechanics better, and the exchange of information created a common ground for us in hostile space. Say what you will, but the inclusion of player skill and the fact that it distracts from dscan is forcing player interaction at gunpoint all over new eden right now




While technically true ( the underliney-bits ) it's just another example of new-features added to eve that people help each other learn. -- It has nothing to do with the fact that it's a mini-game.

I could argue whether or not the mini-game requires player skill, but again, that's not what I'm talking about. The fact is if I want to do something in eve, I do not want to have to play mine-craft to accomplish it.


And as far as the distraction, well, it sounds like you're arguing my point. The folks that do enjoy the mini-game, will not continue to do so, if it is as you say that "forced player interaction at gunpoint" is truly happening all over new eden right now.

They might do it for the loot, if it's good enough, but they won't do it for the enjoyment, and they won't do it for social interaction. The social interaction of which you speak is likely not happening DURING the mini-game, unless I misunderstand your definitions of "player-skill" and "distractions".

Thanks for the reply,

Ris Dnalor


Let me put it this way: In 3 years of exploration, I've never gotten attacked in an exploration site before. Last time I died was way back when I was a noob. People TRIED to gank me, but I was d-scanning every 3 seconds while I watched netflix on my second screen. This was stupid, and I readily admit it. But that was what exploration was. The risks were negligible. In many ways they're still low, but for the first time in years, I got attacked in a site just 2 hours ago. I was shitting bricks, as I had about 800 mil in cargo, and that was WITHOUT me watching netflix. My eyes were on the screen. I was dscanning, but the distraction meant I lowered my guard for just a second. Next thing I knew, I had a helios and a hound warp disrupting me.

And that's my point. Odyssey opened new doors to would-be explorers, and gives the hunters and gankers more targets. Although in this case I'm pretty sure my gankers were pissed, cause they didn't have a scram, and I did. Scrammed the helios and MWD'd out at full burn. Lol Anyways, that simply wouldn't happen prior to Odyssey. We'd all be perfectly d-scanning every 3 seconds for the duration of our run, and effectively taking no risks. This is an improvement over the previous system in every way.

And one more thing: Risk is part of the fun. Exploration was fun before, but it lost all sense of risk very early on. I only did it because I enjoyed the wandering nature of it. Now that I'm actively at risk and getting shot at, I'm having WAY more fun than before. Forget isk income(even if it's better than before), and focus on simple gameplay. I actually feel moderately challenged again, as I have to go into null now. Low has lost some of it's value, but null is now accessible, which balances it out. Simply having isk rain from the skies isn't fun. I want to work for it. I want to get shot at. I want to be hunted. If I'm not at risk, then PvE simply isn't enjoyable to me.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

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