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Jita Population Limit

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Mc Scam
Doomheim
#81 - 2013-06-08 20:38:01 UTC
Hazzard wrote:
They need to setup a limit on people spamming local and if you msg the same thing more then 3 times in a 5 minute interval they should auto log you off.

Then there would be plenty of room in Jita.


Read the blueposts on page 3 pls. There would be no additional room even if they were all removed.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#82 - 2013-06-08 20:55:20 UTC
Mc Scam wrote:
How about removing traffic from afk players by not allowing Jita as final destination for the autopilot? (Just make em park on the gates to Jita instead) Should also keep the cap more stable near the actual needed limit. Would that help?

Edit: I will link this page to every future thread about Jita limits that I run across.
By default then Jita is on the avoidance list so pilots don't 'accidentally' autopilot through Jita. But if people want to go to Jita...

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#83 - 2013-06-08 20:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
DarthNefarius wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Amarr is only like 8 jumps away.

^^ +10

I wonder if CCP is ready to reinforce Ammar like they do Jita if it becomes a larger trade hub. There's been outbreaks of TiDi there too in the last few weeks. I seem to recall Dr E saying in a presentation ~2years ago that Ammarr Empire population has been swelling which makes it a good trade hub.
We reinforced Amarr on 1 June on hardware in the class below Jita to provide better performance.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-06-08 20:59:27 UTC
Anniken Geirsdottir wrote:
Easy way to deterr local spam/scam-bots:

100k Fibonacci jita local cspa charge.

First message in jita local per day is free.
2nd: 100k
3rd: 100k
4th: 200k
5th: 300k
6th: 500k
7th: 800k
8th: 1.3mil
...

Also not per char or account, but per person (identified by cc or other means.)
Also, as need arises, like on saturdays or sundays, factor 10 or 100 could be implemented.



Nicely thought out.

Sure, scamming is a part of the game, but local spamming ruins the usefulness of a channel. CCP should have dealt with them years ago (especially given most will be bots).
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#85 - 2013-06-08 20:59:49 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


I think a major concern is that the Jita limit before cap or tidi apparently went _down_ with Odyssey's release. Why was this? And will it also affect the number at which fleet fights are tidi'd? Performance should get better, not worse, in a big release... we all hope!
It is known why that is; first of all there is always a different usage profile in Jita in the first week after an expansion. More traffic and since the load is mostly traffic related then we need to lower the cap until tha bump of excitement tapers off. Secondly there were changes to logging we did related to the attacks the weekend before Odyssey that we need to optimise. We hope to do that very soon and then the population cap on Jita will return to normal values.


Hope that works, Jita with 2,000-ish population post Odyssey performs quite worst than Jita with 2,300 pop pre-Odissey. Sad
Pre-Odyssey the population cap was 2,170. Post-Odyssey it is 2,050; first and foremost because of increased logging, added the day before Odyssey, which we intend to optimise.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Obunagawe
#86 - 2013-06-08 21:01:07 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


I think a major concern is that the Jita limit before cap or tidi apparently went _down_ with Odyssey's release. Why was this? And will it also affect the number at which fleet fights are tidi'd? Performance should get better, not worse, in a big release... we all hope!
It is known why that is; first of all there is always a different usage profile in Jita in the first week after an expansion. More traffic and since the load is mostly traffic related then we need to lower the cap until tha bump of excitement tapers off. Secondly there were changes to logging we did related to the attacks the weekend before Odyssey that we need to optimise. We hope to do that very soon and then the population cap on Jita will return to normal values.


Hope that works, Jita with 2,000-ish population post Odyssey performs quite worst than Jita with 2,300 pop pre-Odissey. Sad
Pre-Odyssey the population cap was 2,170. Post-Odyssey it is 2,050; first and foremost because of increased logging, added the day before Odyssey, which we intend to optimise.


Pre-pre-Odyssey, it was 2330. Let us not forget.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#87 - 2013-06-08 21:02:15 UTC
Panhead4411 wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.

So, if i may ask, why did the load limit seem to drop lower after the patch? New shiney system add more load than expected?
Replied here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3170015#post3170015

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2013-06-08 21:06:23 UTC
So what's with all the dev answers? Is it post-patch spring break and they finally let you roam free? P
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2013-06-08 21:11:08 UTC
Obunagawe wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
pmchem wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


I think a major concern is that the Jita limit before cap or tidi apparently went _down_ with Odyssey's release. Why was this? And will it also affect the number at which fleet fights are tidi'd? Performance should get better, not worse, in a big release... we all hope!
It is known why that is; first of all there is always a different usage profile in Jita in the first week after an expansion. More traffic and since the load is mostly traffic related then we need to lower the cap until tha bump of excitement tapers off. Secondly there were changes to logging we did related to the attacks the weekend before Odyssey that we need to optimise. We hope to do that very soon and then the population cap on Jita will return to normal values.


Hope that works, Jita with 2,000-ish population post Odyssey performs quite worst than Jita with 2,300 pop pre-Odissey. Sad
Pre-Odyssey the population cap was 2,170. Post-Odyssey it is 2,050; first and foremost because of increased logging, added the day before Odyssey, which we intend to optimise.


Pre-pre-Odyssey, it was 2330. Let us not forget.
Not directly comparable; in the post-Retribution period Jita's TiDi was frequently hitting sub-50% with a population cap of 2,300. On 21 Feb we decided to lower the limit to 2,200 and then further to 2,170 on 22 Feb. The aim was to keep TiDi above 80% and not kick in more often than every 15 minutes on average.

The 2,170 post-Retribution/post-tweaking number is directly comparable to the current 2,050 number. But the cause of that decrease is known and will be addressed.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#90 - 2013-06-08 21:12:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So what's with all the dev answers? Is it post-patch spring break and they finally let you roam free? P
Yes, the summer expansion is out and it's a while until winter comes.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2013-06-08 21:16:22 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So what's with all the dev answers? Is it post-patch spring break and they finally let you roam free? P
Yes, the summer expansion is out and it's a while until winter comes.

I fully expect a Hilmar-as-Eddard GoT photoshop or promo remake as we're getting closer to the winter patch then…

…or has that already happend? Big smile
AtomYcX
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-06-08 21:19:04 UTC
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?

Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers.
Haulie Berry
#93 - 2013-06-08 21:25:13 UTC
AtomYcX wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?

Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers.



Neverminding the fact that the nature of the issue probably makes that impractical, what do you imagine this looking like?

Say they could just linearly scale the node with more hardware. Then what?

They up the population cap, more people go into Jita, now it needs more hardware.

Keep adding hardware until it can support the entire population of Eve concurrently?

Obviously that's impractical.

There's really nothing wrong with Jita. There are a number of entitled kiddies who think that their desire to go to Jita should trump all other concerns, but that's a personal problem.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#94 - 2013-06-08 21:25:46 UTC
AtomYcX wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it up…

…and soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down.

Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole “brain in a box” solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumping… such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.
Circumstantial Evidence
#95 - 2013-06-08 21:26:10 UTC
On the subject of "nerf chat,"
I think some players are trying to point out that marketers are drawn to the largest population and audience for their wares. Chat spam makes some people isk due to the large number of players reading it, but the repetition and sheer amount of it annoys legions of others. The goal is not to restrict local chat by some method, with intention of reducing server load just from chat, but to restrict chat so spam-bots have less reason to be there.

Chribba has posted studies of Jita chat patterns, and found that most of it comes from a relatively small number of abusers... so even on that basis of argument, a handful of spam-bots deciding Jita is no longer worth the trouble and leaving in the face of hypothetical chat restrictions, would not reduce system load very much.

(But it would make a lot of people happier if they DID leave.)
Obunagawe
#96 - 2013-06-08 21:28:21 UTC
AtomYcX wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?

Not a direct comparison but if the company I work at decided to limit the number of concurrent users connected to our system rather than fix the underlying bottleneck, be it software or hardware, we'd have a lot of angry customers.


Jita is apparently single-threaded and already running on a i7 with 5GHz and 64GB RAM. They'd have to work out some way to make it multi-threaded and that will never happen.
Suicidal Blonde
Alchemical Aquisitions
#97 - 2013-06-08 21:35:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
AtomYcX wrote:
Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue?
I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it up…

…and soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down.

Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole “brain in a box” solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumping… such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.


You've mentioned this Brain in a box a couple of times. Have you any links? Enquiring but lazy minds want to know.
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#98 - 2013-06-08 21:39:18 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is.
This.

If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.


I saw a suggestion the other day I liked . Just create an inactivity timer for the Jita system only. Log out those characters that have been in a station with no activity for an hour. You could do it just for Jita 4-4.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#99 - 2013-06-08 21:42:53 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out.


Then disregard my post above. Blink

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
Condrad Antollare
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-06-08 21:44:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Amarr is only like 8 jumps away.


I'm pretty sure you missed the point, this thread is about getting into Jita, not Amarr - Please read before posting.