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Alloys vs Mins Hordes vs Sanctums– An imbalance that needs fixing?
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Mithrandere
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-06 14:37:07 UTC
Hi guys, I appreciate that this could go in the CSM fourm or the market forum - but for now I have put it here till it gets moved.

I have recently started living in drone space, so alloys have become my new friend – or rather, worst enemy.

I have kept a detailed list of scooped alloys for the last 20 hordes I have run. I have found that selling at the locally set up prices for Alloys means each horde is worth about 25.5mil isk. If refined at 100%, and when subjected to a 10% tax, this equates to 23.5mil.
Now I have put the same alloy and mineral values into Jita and have found a very alarming imbalance. If you sell alloys in Jita at LOW prices (I took the bottom value of the realist buy prices supported by at least 5000 quantity) they are worth about 39.5mil isk. Selling at max prices it is possible to get 65mil isk.

Now if you do a perfect refine of minerals and sell using the same rules as above (10000 quantity minimum in this case), the value is about 24.5mil does not get much higher than 25mil.

Now don’t get me wrong, it is quite clear that it is worth selling alloys unrefined rather than refined based on these prices (taken just before DT today). However, I am not allowed to sell my alloys outside of alliance space let alone try and get them to Jita. So my question is this: why is there such a difference between the unrefined cost and refined cost of alloys? Surely they should roughly marry up, give or take a couple of mil – not a couple of dozen mil?

Now I appreciate that supply and demand dictates that because there are lots of roids with the same minerals in them this can have a negative impact on the value of mins and yes, bot miners blah blah blah. But why, when I am stuck in the deepest darkest depths of Cobalt Edge must I be content to settle for an average of 25mil isk per horde pre tax whether I take the mins to Jita or sell them at home when a sanctum (that does not require an extra five mins of scooping/looting to get your isk) averages 35mil isk pre tax (I know this as I used to run sanctums when I was in NC).

Is there a dev out there that can/will comment on this?
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#2 - 2011-11-06 15:07:08 UTC
Quote:
But why, when I am stuck in the deepest darkest depths of Cobalt Edge must I be content to settle for an average of 25mil isk per horde pre tax whether I take the mins to Jita or sell them at home when a sanctum (that does not require an extra five mins of scooping/looting to get your isk) averages 35mil isk pre tax (I know this as I used to run sanctums when I was in NC).


Because space is not equal. This is a good thing.
Mithrandere
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-06 15:48:29 UTC
[quote Because space is not equal. This is a good thing.[/quote]

^ If this is the case then fair play - but we are only partly talking about space. At the end of the day, an unrefined alloy is still worth more than twice its refined price. This is where I have my real problem.
Tammarr
#4 - 2011-11-06 16:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tammarr
wait wait wait

"W prices (I took the bottom value of the realist buy prices supported by at least 5000 quantity) they are worth about 39.5mil isk. Selling at max prices it is possible to get 65mil isk."

So... alloys etc are worth 39-65m isk per site if you sell them in jita eh

"I have found that selling at the locally set up prices for Alloys means each horde is worth about 25.5mil isk. If refined at 100%, and when subjected to a 10% tax, this equates to 23.5mil."

So the localy setup buyorders for alloys etc dont match jita price by a longshot? Like someone is taking one third of your isk. and then taxing the remaining 2/3rds with 10%?

Sounds like you got perfect landlords right there; They are the once setting the local buyorders up and they are taking a huge chunk of your isk! You should try overthrowing them, they are not giving you good deals at all.

Make sure to spread the information to as many grunts as possible before confronting leadership. You may have to do shady things like getting into positions where you and your sneaky team can do things like:

Offline a ton of towers, disband alliance(s), accidently 'miss' to pay sovbills, negotiate with strong exterior forces willing to help mop up your current landlords.
Then you need to get all the upset grunts/ratters to reform into a new alliance painitng a better future for you all.
mingetek
Brainless in Space
#5 - 2011-11-06 17:42:49 UTC
use a carrier or jump frieghter to haul your own drone poop out.

I would nto stand for that crap my self. refine tax + 10% tax ontop. imo 10-15% tax is more than enough.
..
Mithrandere
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-06 17:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mithrandere
Tammarr wrote:
wait wait wait

"W prices (I took the bottom value of the realist buy prices supported by at least 5000 quantity) they are worth about 39.5mil isk. Selling at max prices it is possible to get 65mil isk."

So... alloys etc are worth 39-65m isk per site if you sell them in jita eh

"I have found that selling at the locally set up prices for Alloys means each horde is worth about 25.5mil isk. If refined at 100%, and when subjected to a 10% tax, this equates to 23.5mil."

So the localy setup buyorders for alloys etc dont match jita price by a longshot? Like someone is taking one third of your isk. and then taxing the remaining 2/3rds with 10%?

Sounds like you got perfect landlords right there; They are the once setting the local buyorders up and they are taking a huge chunk of your isk! You should try overthrowing them, they are not giving you good deals at all.

Make sure to spread the information to as many grunts as possible before confronting leadership. You may have to do shady things like getting into positions where you and your sneaky team can do things like:

Offline a ton of towers, disband alliance(s), accidently 'miss' to pay sovbills, negotiate with strong exterior forces willing to help mop up your current landlords.
Then you need to get all the upset grunts/ratters to reform into a new alliance painitng a better future for you all.


There is no problem with the landlords - we are jammed well out into cobalt edge so they offer a very convienient service. Besides, they offer pretty much the same for the mins as if i HAD taken them to jita - this is the point. Refined alloys loose about 33% of the value even if u have 100% refine skills. Its nothing to do with the landlords.
As it may not be clear - let me repeat. The price of the refined alloys from an average horde site is worth about 23mil isk from the service provided by my landlord after taxes. If i haueld the alloys to jita and refiend them there, i would get about 25mil for the minerals.

Problem, again, is that there is about a 25 mil difference between the value of unrefined alloys and refined alloys that suggests that you should not refine them even if u have perfect skills - and I want to know why.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#7 - 2011-11-06 17:59:49 UTC
Could be wrong but I think drone goo has great compression ratios - m3 to minerals, so maybe it's more expensive because they're used for hauling large amounts of minerals. Other than that, manipulation maybe?

I actually have no idea for sure, just throwing out ideas.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#8 - 2011-11-06 18:42:09 UTC
Mithrandere wrote:
Quote:
Because space is not equal. This is a good thing.


^ If this is the case then fair play - but we are only partly talking about space. At the end of the day, an unrefined alloy is still worth more than twice its refined price. This is where I have my real problem.


You sure? Because I'm pretty certain you compared alloy (drone) income to bounty income.

As for refined vs. unrefined pricing...I don't really see how that topic has anything to do with Missions and Complexes or how you expect the forums to help you in any way. Pricing is set by players. Take it up with whoever you are selling to.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2011-11-06 19:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasiv Deka
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Could be wrong but I think drone goo has great compression ratios - m3 to minerals, so maybe it's more expensive because they're used for hauling large amounts of minerals.


This. It makes it easier than having to take time to make modules to transport large amounts of minerals to null space quickly.
Or so thats what a few minutes of research tells me.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.