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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Alizeran
URSKEKS CRYSTAL TOWERS
#441 - 2013-06-08 07:32:46 UTC
In real life I am female and now 58, Eve was my first mmorpg in fact my first voice chat and type chat, and I was completely enthrawled by the game. Oh and I think I might hold the record for being ship killed 4 times in 30 minutes of loading up the game for the first time. But I stayed for a long time.

I have watched the many changes and gone out of game due to some mechanics and some players who feel they need to be agressive.

Many times I have seen the game of Eve brought down by biggots and foul mouthed players, a shame, it is part of life that is now, but still a shame. I have had some unpleasant sexual words used at me and I have heard what some of the men would like to do to other men sexually. Just because you are anonomous behind a screen, gentlemen does not give you the right to speak to anyone as some of you do.

Passive people and players are not welcome in eve. The very nature of the game now does not encourage this.

For myself I was in the game for social interaction, fun, and yes to learn something that for many women of my age is not usual. The game of EVE.

You are asking what gets women to join this game.

I can only speak for myself.

I don't need fancy ships, or pretty dresses or flash screens and fantastic anything. I do need respect.

The game mechanic really does not distinguish between 0.0 low sec or high sec now. The gloves are off and pvpers, gankers..pirates and thieves are having a lot of fun reaping the benifits of the hours that miners and missioners put into their game. Yes I know I am a whiner . lol

The new jump gate annimation, is beyond me I won't even try to deal with the side effects.

I used to enjoy sometimes a dance with one pirate or can flipper ..could be fun and well not so hard to avoid if you pay attention.
but fleets of three or more on one loan mac..not so much fun. Hulkageddon ..a laugh for the pvpers ..a waste of money for the passive player to not play and leave the game.

Women in real life, and those who have families are on guard all the time, we know the realities of the world, in a game we want to just relax and enjoy..without hatred and angst.

But then even the accounts department of eve told me to leave the game if I did not like the attitude of it......

So for all the gentlemen and possibly ladies who do not like my posting..please remember this is one players opinion only, and one who probably will not be in the EVE world any more.

I commend all the women who play Eve and are able to sustain a good game. And all the men who support them.

Fly safe Be safe Alizeran
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#442 - 2013-06-08 07:40:54 UTC
Xeraphi wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
The conversation was making progress...now it's headed south. If you want progress, you're not doing women (or men) any favors by being hostile and extremist/overly sensitive.

So how about the man/woman-haters step aside for a bit and give the floor to the people who just want to improve the gaming experience of women in general --as well as the men who enjoy having them play.

And if that's not possible, don't whine about things not changing because the thread gets locked as it turns into another flame war. *sigh*


We have 22 pages of mostly reasonable discussion in here.

So back to the topic. Does eve need more female players?


I'll recast the question a little differently, because EVE evidently doesn't need more female players; EVE is humming along fairly succesfully with that 96/4 split.

Would EvE be more enjoyable with more female players.

Everything in my life experience says that it would.

Would we have to compromise our enjoyment of EVE in order to make it more attractive to women? I don't think there's any part of EVE that depends on being unpleasant or immature specifically to women players*. Nothing springs to mind anyway. Can anyone supply examples?

*Notice that I said "players". Plenty in EVE depends on being allowed to do mean things to the characters belonging to women players. But nothing in EVE depends on being crappy to the person outside the game IMO. Prove me wrong if you can.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malak Dawnfire
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#443 - 2013-06-08 07:49:43 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8s_q3IaglQ

If I play this song will more women come to EVE?
Maybelater Headache
Doomheim
#444 - 2013-06-08 08:18:36 UTC
Malak Dawnfire wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8s_q3IaglQ

If I play this song will more women come to EVE?


Mhm. I really don´t know. But staring on this for at least 48h continuously will improve your sh(i)t posting abilities dramatically.
Juny Wuny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2013-06-08 09:04:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

I'll recast the question a little differently, because EVE evidently doesn't need more female players; EVE is humming along fairly succesfully with that 96/4 split.

Would EvE be more enjoyable with more female players.

Everything in my life experience says that it would.



Now I'm curious... what in your life says that it would be more enjoyable?

I have noticed lately that people seem to paint a prettier view of the opposite sex than they do of their gender. I can say as a female that there is a reason that make up has a nickname of war paint. Personally I don't care about the gender breakdown of EVE. It wasn't what drew me to the game.

If there were more girls around I'd welcome them. Just like I do in real life in male dominated fields. It's just that when women come together in large groups you see the sense of sisterhood fall away very quickly. In it's place you find cut throat competition that does not follow moral boundaries in most cases.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#446 - 2013-06-08 09:33:43 UTC
Juny Wuny wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

I'll recast the question a little differently, because EVE evidently doesn't need more female players; EVE is humming along fairly succesfully with that 96/4 split.

Would EvE be more enjoyable with more female players.

Everything in my life experience says that it would.



Now I'm curious... what in your life says that it would be more enjoyable?

I have noticed lately that people seem to paint a prettier view of the opposite sex than they do of their gender. I can say as a female that there is a reason that make up has a nickname of war paint. Personally I don't care about the gender breakdown of EVE. It wasn't what drew me to the game.

If there were more girls around I'd welcome them. Just like I do in real life in male dominated fields. It's just that when women come together in large groups you see the sense of sisterhood fall away very quickly. In it's place you find cut throat competition that does not follow moral boundaries in most cases.


It's a legit question. Single-gender groups tend to easily turn bad toxic in my experience, perhaps because there's no corrective perspective. At the risk of committing essentialism myself, my experience is that all-women groups can easily turn cliquey and vicious just as all male groups frequently become violent and xenophobic. When you're in such an environment and not exposed to any other, it's easy to see that toxin as "normal" or "its just the way we are" or "if you want to join then you have to fit in".

Having worked in a 95% female workplace, a 95% male workplace and a 50/50 workplace, I can say that a good balance is most definitely better for a good atmosphere.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#447 - 2013-06-08 10:45:01 UTC
I see many responses saying that WIS would attract women, which as I stated early is a big yes. The social aspect to many women is a big draw.

As a woman, I have to tell you how much I appreciate men who treat me as a lady and take care not to get too vulgar around me, I can hang with plenty of things playing a male dominated game, but extreme vulgarity and that usual ** or GTFO is old, but I just usually ignore it.

I also have to laugh at some of the reactions to when I enter a voice chat for the first time... my fave was some guy who loved my voice so much he thought that I would respond favorably when he tried to post male pics of a porn star for me... ?????
WTH? I think he thought I would be sooo excited that I would take him into a private chat rooom ... if ya know what I mean... lol

If you can talk your wife, gf, sis, or mother into giving it a go for a month, the first thing to do is to get her into a voice chat with some fun peeps. I have a fantastic group of online Eve friends that I have stayed with since the very first week of playing and I love spending time just chatting with them some nights.

but CCP... WIS WIS WIS!!! and if you let me design some of the clothes I KNOW I could attract some women to play :)

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

Maybelater Headache
Doomheim
#448 - 2013-06-08 10:53:08 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:
...As a woman, I have to tell you how much I appreciate men who treat me as a lady...


Which unfortunately sometimes translates to "I expect you to treat me in a way that fits exactly to my demands in this very moment".
Which is impossible and causing endless drama.
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#449 - 2013-06-08 10:59:38 UTC
Maybelater Headache wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
...As a woman, I have to tell you how much I appreciate men who treat me as a lady...


Which unfortunately sometimes translates to "I expect you to treat me in a way that fits exactly to my demands in this very moment".
Which is impossible and causing endless drama.



not with me.

I was referring to how many men are kind enough to refrain from excessive vulgarity in conversations, which I appreciate.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

Maybelater Headache
Doomheim
#450 - 2013-06-08 11:50:11 UTC
I did not refer to you in particular, sry

Personally i have never experienced "excessive vulgarity" inside the game, which might be related to individual perception or/and lucky choice of people i decided to interact with.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#451 - 2013-06-08 12:04:08 UTC
Maybelater Headache wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
...As a woman, I have to tell you how much I appreciate men who treat me as a lady...


Which unfortunately sometimes translates to "I expect you to treat me in a way that fits exactly to my demands in this very moment".
Which is impossible and causing endless drama.


I think that interpretation says more about you than it does about her.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2013-06-08 13:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Malcanis wrote:


I'll recast the question a little differently, because EVE evidently doesn't need more female players; EVE is humming along fairly succesfully with that 96/4 split.

Would EvE be more enjoyable with more female players.

Everything in my life experience says that it would.

Would we have to compromise our enjoyment of EVE in order to make it more attractive to women? I don't think there's any part of EVE that depends on being unpleasant or immature specifically to women players*. Nothing springs to mind anyway. Can anyone supply examples?

*Notice that I said "players". Plenty in EVE depends on being allowed to do mean things to the characters belonging to women players. But nothing in EVE depends on being crappy to the person outside the game IMO. Prove me wrong if you can.



Do I think EvE would be more enjoyable? Probably, and more for indirect reasons than obvious ones. As you say, balance and ---in my opinion, diversity. Though bottom line, I care more about the caliber of players whatever their gender.

Would it require compromise? Yes.

Taking just one example, in a game where the word "****" (rap with an e) and its variants is common language (let alone public links to porn, (you know, those kinda pics) racial and gay slurs, it takes a special kind of person, especially of the female variant, willing to put up with it to enjoy the game. That or find a place where it occurs less frequently and ignore local.

Player-driven change is where it's at, but CCP could do its part, if they wanted to. The necessary change (which by the way isn't offensive only to women -- and some do not care) would crimp some people's enjoyment, apparently.

I mean seriously, there are people that may not be able to express themselves if they were limited to smacking and not attacking in increasingly non-original, hostile ways.

I have a semi-idea for a voluntary solution corps could take: I may post it, but another one, in short, involves CCP, who could look to Bioware for examples of how to deal with crap. Though admittedly, they fail a lot too, but at least are trying. It's very *simple* there to report a person and if enough reports are sent they take action -- which usually involves a slap on the wrist.
Maybelater Headache
Doomheim
#453 - 2013-06-08 15:05:03 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I think that interpretation says more about you than it does about her.


Which is exactly what?
The Old Chap
Doomheim
#454 - 2013-06-08 15:22:25 UTC
We're all hiding behind our in-game personas' anyway.

So does it really matter what the gender ratio is of EVE's player base?

If so, why does this matter more than fretting about the percentage of players who are old, gay, disabled, fat or wear spectacles?

Look into my eyes...   and tighten that sphincter, kid.

Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#455 - 2013-06-08 15:23:51 UTC
I buddy-invited a real girl. All hail Garamonde.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2013-06-08 15:28:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
The Old Chap wrote:
We're all hiding behind our in-game personas' anyway.

So does it really matter what the gender ratio is of EVE's player base?

If so, why does this matter more than fretting about the percentage of players who are old, gay, disabled, fat or wear spectacles?


I don't think anyone is saying it does matter matter more. This is merely an addressing of one issue, of several. Any -ism and hate speech directed at the aforementioned (and other minority groups) should be addressed. A culture that actively alienates such groups is living in very barbaric times.

Gender, racial, religious and other slurs ...should be off the table.

ETA: Albeit, software aside, you can't disguise the fact you're a woman on comms. With the exception of age and race to variable degree, the rest of this is not public knowledge unless you chose to make it so. Hence, there is less reaction to it.
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#457 - 2013-06-08 15:46:44 UTC
The Old Chap wrote:
We're all hiding behind our in-game personas' anyway.

So does it really matter what the gender ratio is of EVE's player base?

If so, why does this matter more than fretting about the percentage of players who are old, gay, disabled, fat or wear spectacles?



Does stepping into voice chat with someone instantly identify you as old, gay, disabled, fat, or wearing spectacles? If you are identified as one of the listed descriptors, do you expect to get both random propositions and random vitriol? Do you, as a spectacle-wearing person, find that you are actually grateful and relieved to run across people who just don't care about your glasses and care about your ability to pilot your ship?
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#458 - 2013-06-08 17:12:52 UTC
Maybe I'm alone in this...but as a woman and a player of eve...I rather enjoy the fact that there's only 4% of us around. Must be the tomboy in me I suppose but I usually prefer the company of guys over other women anyway. Plus the low female population makes me feel just a tad special without any of the unpleasant "unique snowflake" side effects. Now I can't speak for the other women in his thread but...this is eve and if I possess a weapon or asset that gives me an advantage I don't see why I shouldn't make use of it.

What's funny about that is that eve is the only game I've ever played where I feel it's not a little cheap or degrading to behave in such a way. The game allows me to act in something of a more primal way and sort of enjoy that...or rather...I've learned to enjoy it since starting eve.
Echo Echoplex
#459 - 2013-06-08 17:20:20 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Echo Echoplex wrote:
There are biological factors hardwired into both sexes beyond the physical. Gender differences are hardwired too, like it or not. Women make children so they were hardwired to be nurturers. Men were wired for aggression simply because as the (generally) stronger sex they were set up to hunt and fight. Where the struggles come into play is in refuting it because you think that means settling for it.


Do you have any scientific support for that statement, or is this just what you believe to be true?




Sorry, I just found this-

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I'm not sure if you're serious? I'm new here and I honestly can't tell if you're trolling, forgive me.

Human sexual genetics and psychology are one of, if not the most, vastly studied branche(s) of scientific research of all time and serious study goes back as far as the 17th century at least. I'm sure you've heard at Darwinian theory, the Kinsey studies, etc, the Smithsonian Institute, Oxford, etc?

It runs the gamut from tiny studies using flawed science, sloppy research and only a handful of test samples to gigantic studies utilizing thousands of test samples and purely empirical research conducted over decades.

And as with any true science, yes, there's endless hardcore debate and comparison of those studies and careers are devoted to such, but what I mentioned is generally accepted as not only one of the most basic findings and a startpoint for the rest of the research, it's also backed up by thousands of studies of sexual genetic behavior in thousands of other animal species using empirical data and cross-referenced to those human studies.

Just Google human sexual genetics major studies/findings.

Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. Gen. George S. Patton

Echo Echoplex
#460 - 2013-06-08 17:25:27 UTC
(by the way-sorry if thread hijacked/off topic, just answering the question Smile)

Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. Gen. George S. Patton