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Large Turret damage versus frigates.

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Naomi Felclaw
Clan Wolf Hunters
#1 - 2013-06-08 08:39:40 UTC
I pilot a Hyperion on most mission runs. Tank fitted it can withstand plenty. Micro Jump Drive helps get it away from pesky frigates. When I play with my friend I change it to a snipe fit, swap out a few resistance mods for damage mods.

We warp into the mission. He gets all the attention and I jump away to 100km+. I target the frigs first and all I get are messages saying I missed completely.

I have a tracking computer and sensor booster scripted to let my target 110-120km away and optimal is 103km. Tracking is fine, the frigs tracking is only half my max. It only started recently.

I started looking through my turret info trying to figure out what the heck is up with my gun and i find a Sig Radius on it. Since when did a turret have a Sig Radius? I know Titans were nerfed against frigates and but a BS class gun? Isn't bad enough the second their within 30km I cant hit them now i have to wait till they get between 60-80?

Its a little sadder now that with 2 missing guns and low missile skills I'm just gonna replace my favorite ship soon.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-06-08 08:45:25 UTC
u should fit half blasters half rails

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-06-08 08:50:06 UTC
Drones.
PAcifisti
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-06-08 08:54:06 UTC
I see you don't do this "reading" a lot if you're complaining about hyperion losing guns and gun signature resolution?

The turret sig resolution for guns has been there for as long as I can remember. I hasn't changed at all and it only affects your tracking, not the dmg.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

Google is your friend. Nothing has changed (Apart from tracking enhancers, if you relied of those you'll see a slightly nerfed tracking)

Hyperion is better than ever, it lost guns but got a bigger dmg bonus and a lowslot instead. Plug in a magstab in the new lowslot and fit bigger guns and you'll deal way more dmg than before.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#5 - 2013-06-08 09:00:39 UTC
Naomi Felclaw wrote:

Its a little sadder now that with 2 missing guns and low missile skills I'm just gonna replace my favorite ship soon.


Why?
My mission rail-Hyper has 1200+ DPS with sentry drones.
Also guns outperform missiles in 90% of situations. Why would you want to change to a worse weapon system?
This CM buff didn't make them op and super good. It's more or less the same. You still can't one-shot frigs and other things missiles can't do.

If you don't like rails' drawbacks use blasters.
With blasters you can get 1400+dps. I actually love new hyper because you have less problems fitting it and you get more DPS because of drones.

Hyper is awesome, you should try different fits. Something might work for you.

Whatever.
Naomi Felclaw
Clan Wolf Hunters
#6 - 2013-06-08 09:18:12 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Naomi Felclaw wrote:

Its a little sadder now that with 2 missing guns and low missile skills I'm just gonna replace my favorite ship soon.


Why?
My mission rail-Hyper has 1200+ DPS with sentry drones.
Also guns outperform missiles in 90% of situations. Why would you want to change to a worse weapon system?
This CM buff didn't make them op and super good. It's more or less the same. You still can't one-shot frigs and other things missiles can't do.

If you don't like rails' drawbacks use blasters.
With blasters you can get 1400+dps. I actually love new hyper because you have less problems fitting it and you get more DPS because of drones.

Hyper is awesome, you should try different fits. Something might work for you.


Before the patch there were times I could see it hit for 1600 on a BS rat in hull. Today it never hit harder then 700 on them. Since that was my group of guns they went from 200 each to ~117 each. I'll try out sentries though. Haven't had much experience with them cause they don't seem to wanna move once launched and I'm use to the normal kind.

As for reading, I usually do more reading on the modules then my friend. And I really don't remember a Sig Radius being on there before. The forum i found on targeting didn't have anything about somethings sig radius being involved other then missiles.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-08 09:46:32 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:

Also guns outperform missiles in 90% of situations. Why would you want to change to a worse weapon system?


lolwut. So missiles being fully damage selectable, no effective minimum range and generally longer maximum range makes them worse in 90% of situations? ok.

Also @OP the guns don't have a signature radius they have a signature resolution

This means the ratio between your guns' signature resolution and the target's signature radius affects your effective tracking.

The tracking speed when you show info on your guns is ONLY IF the target you are shooting has exactly the same signature radius as your guns' resolution.

If it is smaller then your effective tracking is worse, if it is bigger than your tracking is actually improved.

Art of Explosions
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-06-08 10:06:29 UTC
Your effective tracking = Tracking * (enemy sig radius / your gun sig radius)

So if your target is 100m and your gun 400m
100/400=0,25
That means you only get 25% of your tracking versus that target and the difference between large guns and frigates is even bigger then this.
Naomi Felclaw
Clan Wolf Hunters
#9 - 2013-06-08 11:03:28 UTC
Thank you. That would explain why an angel viper dodges a lot...buggers are just too dang tiny. Well guess the missiles and drones will be taking care of those ones then.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#10 - 2013-06-08 11:09:12 UTC
Try flying away from the rats, stringing them out. Large rails shouldn't have a problem blapping most NPC frigs beyond 30km.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#11 - 2013-06-08 11:21:25 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

lolwut. So missiles being fully damage selectable, no effective minimum range and generally longer maximum range makes them worse in 90% of situations? ok.


I fly Kronos and have:
1. No effective minimum range because of blasters. I shoot rats at 5km just the same as at 30 or 50km.
2. No need for a huge maximum range because I have MWD. It takes less than 10 seconds to get on the range I need to do my full DPS.
3. I don't need to change the damage type because hybrids do KIN/THERM. Every rat has a weakness to one of those damages.

Why missiles still suck? That's why:
1. Have damage reduction when a rat uses AB.
2. Need to use TP and wait for its cycle to end.
3. Have to use rigs and TPs to make missiles perform, while gun-ships don't need that and you have like 2-3 free slots.
4. No crits. Yes, guns can do critical damage. From time to time I can shoot some weak rat BS in 3 shots. My RoF is 4 sec so it takes 12 sec to kill a BS rat. Missiles can't do that.
5. Can't one-shot small frigs.
6. Damage reduction from Defenders. It works especially great when you fly a Golem. 1 defender reduces your damage by 25%.
7. Long reload time and small missile capacity. On ACs and Blasters you almost never reload during the mission.
8. Overdamage because the damage is not instant.

So yea, basically lolwot.

Whatever.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-06-08 13:14:06 UTC

Funky Lazers wrote:

1. No effective minimum range because of blasters. I shoot rats at 5km just the same as at 30 or 50km.
2. No need for a huge maximum range because I have MWD. It takes less than 10 seconds to get on the range I need to do my full DPS.
3. I don't need to change the damage type because hybrids do KIN/THERM. Every rat has a weakness to one of those damages.


1. Have damage reduction when a rat uses AB.
2. Need to use TP and wait for its cycle to end.
3. Have to use rigs and TPs to make missiles perform, while gun-ships don't need that and you have like 2-3 free slots.
4. No crits. Yes, guns can do critical damage. From time to time I can shoot some weak rat BS in 3 shots. My RoF is 4 sec so it takes 12 sec to kill a BS rat. Missiles can't do that.
5. Can't one-shot small frigs.
6. Damage reduction from Defenders. It works especially great when you fly a Golem. 1 defender reduces your damage by 25%.
7. Long reload time and small missile capacity. On ACs and Blasters you almost never reload during the mission.
8. Overdamage because the damage is not instant.


1. You need to web anything frigate sized to hit it at that close range, same as your TP argument. Also I would love to know what your DPS is at 30 or even 50km especially after the TE nerf.
2. Many level 4 missions spawn things over 70km away, a kronos with a mwd moves at around 1000m/s, not including acceleration and given the range issue mentioned above, you spend more time flying to your targets than actually shooting.
3. It's a secondary weakness, missiles can exploit primary weaknesses which are usually more effective by 10%. Considering hybrids do mixed damage means that it's always going to be hitting some kind of high resistance.

1. You have damage reduction for anything that you can't track
2. You need to use webs to hit small things and wait for that cycle to end
3. You need to use rigs for either better damage projection or cap, same story.
4. Missiles can 3 volley some battleships and from about 4x further away.
5. Who cares, that's what drones are for
6. Never had a problem with defenders, they appear so infrequently.
7. I shoot things from 100km away, my reload time is nothing compared to your useless MWDing around time.
8. You're bad if you don't know how to manage your launchers like that.

Art of Explosions
Naomi Felclaw
Clan Wolf Hunters
#13 - 2013-06-08 14:10:27 UTC
Kasutra wrote:
Try flying away from the rats, stringing them out. Large rails shouldn't have a problem blapping most NPC frigs beyond 30km.


The issue I wanted to ask about was then targeting small frigates, usually Angel Vipers or Thugs, at over 80km I would miss completely. If anything gets too close or two far away I just use the jump drive.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-06-08 14:26:26 UTC
Naomi Felclaw wrote:
Kasutra wrote:
Try flying away from the rats, stringing them out. Large rails shouldn't have a problem blapping most NPC frigs beyond 30km.


The issue I wanted to ask about was then targeting small frigates, usually Angel Vipers or Thugs, at over 80km I would miss completely. If anything gets too close or two far away I just use the jump drive.


80km is probably a lot further out than your optimal range right?

But frigates become extremely easy to hit when they are flying directly at you, when you initially enter a room they are orbiting larger ships and therefore are pretty hard to hit. Once they've aggroed you they will fly directly at you at almost 0 transversal and will be very easy to hit.

Art of Explosions
Edey
#15 - 2013-06-09 09:37:43 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

1. You need to web anything frigate sized to hit it at that close range, same as your TP argument. Also I would love to know what your DPS is at 30 or even 50km especially after the TE nerf.
2. Many level 4 missions spawn things over 70km away, a kronos with a mwd moves at around 1000m/s, not including acceleration and given the range issue mentioned above, you spend more time flying to your targets than actually shooting.
3. It's a secondary weakness, missiles can exploit primary weaknesses which are usually more effective by 10%. Considering hybrids do mixed damage means that it's always going to be hitting some kind of high resistance.

1. You have damage reduction for anything that you can't track
2. You need to use webs to hit small things and wait for that cycle to end
3. You need to use rigs for either better damage projection or cap, same story.
4. Missiles can 3 volley some battleships and from about 4x further away.
5. Who cares, that's what drones are for
6. Never had a problem with defenders, they appear so infrequently.
7. I shoot things from 100km away, my reload time is nothing compared to your useless MWDing around time.
8. You're bad if you don't know how to manage your launchers like that.


Tsukino Stareine wrote:

1. You need to web anything frigate sized to hit it at that close range, same as your TP argument. Also I would love to know what your DPS is at 30 or even 50km especially after the TE nerf.
2. Many level 4 missions spawn things over 70km away, a kronos with a mwd moves at around 1000m/s, not including acceleration and given the range issue mentioned above, you spend more time flying to your targets than actually shooting.
3. It's a secondary weakness, missiles can exploit primary weaknesses which are usually more effective by 10%. Considering hybrids do mixed damage means that it's always going to be hitting some kind of high resistance.

1. You have damage reduction for anything that you can't track
2. You need to use webs to hit small things and wait for that cycle to end
3. You need to use rigs for either better damage projection or cap, same story.
4. Missiles can 3 volley some battleships and from about 4x further away.
5. Who cares, that's what drones are for
6. Never had a problem with defenders, they appear so infrequently.
7. I shoot things from 100km away, my reload time is nothing compared to your useless MWDing around time.
8. You're bad if you don't know how to manage your launchers like that.


Guess you never flew a mission before using guns.
You don't need a web for blasters, they have an uber tracking.
Your 3 volleys take around 25-27 seconds while blasters' 3 volleys is around 12 sec.

Having MWD speeds up completing the missions.

If you don't know what's so good about one shooting frig rats you shut up and google it.

Aww damn, I again wasted my time on some monkey.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#16 - 2013-06-09 09:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
It would be much better if frigs got you as aggro target

if you didnt jump 100k back from where your m8 is so that frigs are incoming on both of you kinda then you will have issues..object small as frig if not flying toward you are hard to hit because velocity is high and traversal is going nuts.

it will become even worse if they are in orbit around him good remedy for this is immobilizing frigs by your friend web or have high tracking weapon that can hit @ crazy range(auto canon Machariel / Vargur) dose two ships could pull it off fairly easy.

Because they just have so much good tracking and if you think rails have good tracking well my guess will be you are at 0.03 rad/sec at best(using long range high tracking ammo) while autos(and blastors (but lack range)) have 0.1 rad / sec or more ...difference is huge.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#17 - 2013-06-09 11:12:19 UTC
Naomi Felclaw wrote:
The issue I wanted to ask about was then targeting small frigates, usually Angel Vipers or Thugs, at over 80km I would miss completely. If anything gets too close or two far away I just use the jump drive.

Frigate, when moving without their MWD, even at long range, are very hard to hit. You can only shoot them with LR guns when they MWD toward you.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#18 - 2013-06-09 12:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Naomi Felclaw wrote:
Kasutra wrote:
Try flying away from the rats, stringing them out. Large rails shouldn't have a problem blapping most NPC frigs beyond 30km.


The issue I wanted to ask about was then targeting small frigates, usually Angel Vipers or Thugs, at over 80km I would miss completely. If anything gets too close or two far away I just use the jump drive.


You can use a high range ammo and use double tracking scripts, alternatively T2 Bouncers do a fantastic job against frigs at this ranges. A hull like the Kronos or navy Mega is a lot better at this, because they got a tracking bonus(normal Mega lacks the sentry damage and the slot for the extra drone link now).

As for blasters and L4, I flown rail ships for years and the correct answer of blasters or failguns are better is surprisingly simple: lasers(failguns are still better than blasters, by constant sentry and turret dps uptime).

I find it funny that people consider missiles bad with the recent CM changes, but I guess it will take some time till you guys catch up.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-06-09 14:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Edey wrote:

Guess you never flew a mission before using guns.
You don't need a web for blasters, they have an uber tracking.
Your 3 volleys take around 25-27 seconds while blasters' 3 volleys is around 12 sec.

Having MWD speeds up completing the missions.

If you don't know what's so good about one shooting frig rats you shut up and google it.

Aww damn, I again wasted my time on some monkey.


Actually I have, it's fun and efficient but in different ways to missiles.

You need a web for large neutrons vs frigates, you've clearly never used large blasters because you won't hit well on one orbiting you in blaster range.

3 volleys taking 25-27 seconds, yeah maybe at 0 skills and the target is 150km away, but then how long would it take for guns in the same situation? Oh that's right NEVER.

having a MWD speeds up completing missions yes, but not comparing the difference in ranges between blasters and cruise missiles.

one-shotting elite frigates only becomes important if you're scared you can't tank for long enough for drones to take them out or you're somehow speed tanking in a battleship (machariel is the only one that comes to mind). Otherwise you should just set drones on elite frigates and blap everything else or you shouldn't be running level 4 missions.

Aww, damn you wasted your time looking clueless :(

Art of Explosions
Ginger Barbarella
#20 - 2013-06-09 14:28:22 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Why missiles still suck? That's why:
1. Have damage reduction when a rat uses AB.
2. Need to use TP and wait for its cycle to end.
3. Have to use rigs and TPs to make missiles perform, while gun-ships don't need that and you have like 2-3 free slots.
4. No crits. Yes, guns can do critical damage. From time to time I can shoot some weak rat BS in 3 shots. My RoF is 4 sec so it takes 12 sec to kill a BS rat. Missiles can't do that.
5. Can't one-shot small frigs.
6. Damage reduction from Defenders. It works especially great when you fly a Golem. 1 defender reduces your damage by 25%.
7. Long reload time and small missile capacity. On ACs and Blasters you almost never reload during the mission.
8. Overdamage because the damage is not instant.


Wow... just--- wow.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
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