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Humans & Clones
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Velarra
#1 - 2013-06-07 21:13:03 UTC
Is a rookie pilot, who has entered game/graduated from a capsuleer school for the first time, the clone of a dead human?

Or are pilots in their original birth (natural / tube.) bodies up until their first pvp pod death as a pod Pilot?

The new intro seems to suggest that new pilots are clones of dead humans due to the lethal brain-scan tech used to create pilots.

Put another way:

Jane Doe is born to a Mother & Father the natural way. She grows up in a good family, showing aptitude and intellect suitable for advanced educational & professional pursuits. Government health tests reveal she can be a pod pilot due to a twist of genetic fate. She goes to an empire military school where she is trained in the way of spaceships and scientific research. Somewhere along the line the day comes where she'll become a true capsuleer.

Yet before the final point where she IS a capsuleer she has to lay down on a bed at special medical facility where her brain will be scanned. A near exact duplicate of her brain is scanned & transferred to a clone fit with plugs and things for use in a pilot's capsule. Unfortunately, the brain scan kills the body it scans. A blinking red "terminated" sign shows up on a screen near by.

Fortunately the clone is a practical duplicate and retains her original sense of self, consciousness, memories knowledge, loves, fears, hatreds and all of those things which define her as a unique individual.

And yet the 25 yr old body that was born naturally to her mother and father is now biologically dead, killed by a brain scan, which was used to create a capsuleer.

Is this correct? Or is the new intro film being overly vague and taking a bit of creative license?
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-06-07 21:21:39 UTC
Yeah you have to complete the cloning process before your ever turned loose in a ship.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-06-07 23:24:56 UTC
I don't think this is entirely required, but it may be required for the specific implantation used in current generation capsules. The capsule prototypes did not require cloning into specific clone to operate capsules, as capsules have been used before they got merged with neuroscanners, as early as during Caldari-Gallente war.
However, regardless of whether current-gen capsule implantation tech requires cloning to use it, it's still much faster and shouls be significantly less troublesome for the future capsuleer than live implantation, since implants go very deep into the neural cortex of the human body, and the technology of creating clones with pre-implanted tech is well understood now and used widely throughout the cluster as hundreds or even more capsuleers are being cloned back and forth each hour.
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#4 - 2013-06-08 00:22:32 UTC
Actually, after a great many re-watches I've realized that the new intro doesn't say a thing about having to clone in order to become a pilot for the first time.

It says that to become immortal, capsuleers "pay the ultimate price". This doesn't mean we are killed to clone during training - it could just as well refer to the fact that we aren't teleported out of battle safely when podded, but actually die (in that body, at least). That's death - the ultimate price we pay to become immortal.

It says that at the moment of death, our mind get moved over to a new clone. Again, nothing here states it happens during training - this is, though, exactly what happens during battle.

It shows someone getting scanned and then the little flashy icon thing saying "life signs terminated". It does not say this happens during training, or even that they are permanently terminated - this could just as easily refer to the body being placed in cold shutdown after a (non-destructive) clone jump. Life signs would damn well be "terminated", as CONCORD frowns upon people having two clones floating about at the same time - but the body is not truly dead, as it can be jumped back to at a later date.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-06-08 04:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Esna Pitoojee wrote:
Actually, after a great many re-watches I've realized that the new intro doesn't say a thing about having to clone in order to become a pilot for the first time.

It says that to become immortal, capsuleers "pay the ultimate price". This doesn't mean we are killed to clone during training - it could just as well refer to the fact that we aren't teleported out of battle safely when podded, but actually die (in that body, at least). That's death - the ultimate price we pay to become immortal.

It says that at the moment of death, our mind get moved over to a new clone. Again, nothing here states it happens during training - this is, though, exactly what happens during battle.

It shows someone getting scanned and then the little flashy icon thing saying "life signs terminated". It does not say this happens during training, or even that they are permanently terminated - this could just as easily refer to the body being placed in cold shutdown after a (non-destructive) clone jump. Life signs would damn well be "terminated", as CONCORD frowns upon people having two clones floating about at the same time - but the body is not truly dead, as it can be jumped back to at a later date.

No, clone jumps are destructive. there's a paragraph regarding jump clones in this article (section clones, last paragraph in section):
Quote:
So-called "jump cloning" works in much the same manner. Once a jump contract has been agreed upon, the customer can enter any cloning facility at any station, whereupon they will be brain-scanned, their originating bodies effectively flatlined, and their consciousness transferred to a waiting jump clone at their requested destination. Any implants in the originating body are carefully picked out by machines and just as carefully inserted into a fresh clone waiting at the original jumping-off point. Once the owner finally jumps back, from their point of view, they are returning to the same body, with the same implants and all, when in actuality it is a new clone.


I've watched the trailer myself and i still believe that's a standard practice of becoming a capsuleer, since, technically, it would be cheaper and faster than surgically implanting all the neural link implants, though i have no idea how advanced the surgery technology actually is.
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#6 - 2013-06-08 05:14:14 UTC
Personally I was always under the assumption you were still very much yourself after you graduated the capsuleer programs. It was only after you were killed in battle that you became a true clone of your original self.
Ckra Trald
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-08 23:52:49 UTC
i think its more of philosophical issue if anything. Are you truly you or just a copy, like copy/pasting a file onto a harddrive

i think what the devs/storyline writers say is that you are you after pod death. philosophical reasons aside, you just wake like after a nap or something

http://www.rusemen.com/ Join Tengoo xd
Velarra
#8 - 2013-06-09 00:04:53 UTC
The question is essentially, - are newly graduated characters, new pilots, before they ever undock (under player control) ... the clone of a dead human? Is the original birth body of the pilot killed, in order to make the capsuleer?

y/n ?
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#9 - 2013-06-09 00:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Horatius Caul
Capsuleers pre-2011 who had never been podded or jump cloned had their original bodies.

Capsuleers after that were euthanized as part of their graduation. This was when the NPE was revised to have Aura explicitly state that your original body was destroyed.*

It's possible that this was struck from the NPE in the latest revision, but the Second Decade trailer makes it quite clear that it's still the practice.

*Sauce: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1519536&page=1#8

Amarrad - Amarr language project
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#10 - 2013-06-09 02:39:49 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Capsuleers pre-2011 who had never been podded or jump cloned had their original bodies.

Capsuleers after that were euthanized as part of their graduation. This was when the NPE was revised to have Aura explicitly state that your original body was destroyed.*

It's possible that this was struck from the NPE in the latest revision, but the Second Decade trailer makes it quite clear that it's still the practice.

*Sauce: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1519536&page=1#8



That bit was actually excised from the NPE fairly quickly after it appeared.
Velarra
#11 - 2013-06-09 03:03:55 UTC
I'm reminded of this cat, ... that's in a box.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-06-10 00:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Velarra wrote:
I'm reminded of this cat, ... that's in a box.

Is it any particular cat? Because as far as i know, all of cats have at least some feelings toward boxes, mostly expressed as an inexplicable desire to put themselves inside one (or two).
Jev Zhuco
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-06-11 05:07:51 UTC
Am I thinking of a different game? I seem to remember a story when I played about 2 years ago where a new capsuleer was actually the clone of someone who had already lived a full life. they lived they reach the end of their normal life span and then they were cloned into capsuleers. That image of young healthy people being killed to become capsuleers was somewhat disturbing in light of that memory.
Axel Kurki
Aseyakone
#14 - 2013-06-11 10:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Axel Kurki
When a battleship goes poof, in a lucky case a few hundred people, most of them young and fit, die. Deal with it.

As for capsuleers, I would assume that it is technically possible to become a capsuleer the old-fashioned way, by having the capsule implants surgically placed into your brain, but that is considerably more risky than having them placed during the clone creation process and then mind transferring into the ready clone. I guess if someone would be freaky enough, it would be possible to save the dead original body in a cryochamber or something and use it in case you needed some A-class biomass. Just scoop out the brain, have a blank brain put in, and jump clone into it if you want to use it.

I actually tried originally to keep the original body safe (assume it being harvested after jumping out), but after some jump cloning around, I forgot which body was the original one.