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So many T2 BPO's for sale..could it be..
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Vordek Rei
Masters of Mass
#21 - 2013-05-30 21:55:41 UTC
I will tell you why we are selling our T2 BPO's. If you are clever you can figure it out here in my other post.

My post on R64 and market changes.

If you just want a quick answer then here it is.

More people are going to be manufacturing T2, control of T2 component market becomes very difficult.
Lower profit on T2 production from increased competition.
Slight chance of a rebound on the market, but the golden days of T2 BPO ISK printing is about to end.
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#22 - 2013-05-31 08:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lara Dantreb
Vordek Rei wrote:
I will tell you why we are selling our T2 BPO's. If you are clever you can figure it out here in my other post.

My post on R64 and market changes.

If you just want a quick answer then here it is.

More people are going to be manufacturing T2, control of T2 component market becomes very difficult.
Lower profit on T2 production from increased competition.
Slight chance of a rebound on the market, but the golden days of T2 BPO ISK printing is about to end.


Your analysis is speculation about investment in moon materials.

You extrapolate it to final T2 products.

This is the flaw of your analysis : T2 market is driven by demand, not by offer. Ship overhaul, new trends in pvp, change the demand for a particular ship.

In the end, T2 ship bpos will always be profitable as long as the ship they produce are useful. Whatever are the prices for moon materials and composites...

On a side note, T2 bpos are not isk printing machines : it's a lot of dedication to buy, haul, make components, assemble T1 and T2 ships, haul again then sell : For 25 T2 bpos (cruisers and industrial hulls), I use continuously 100 production slots 24/7, making a rough 45 Bil profit per month. And I produce a few hundreds more ships from invention, from cruiser hulls to jump freighters. Total isks involved in the processes (from buy orders to sell orders in instance) is around 350 Bil

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#23 - 2013-05-31 09:06:52 UTC
Holding T2 BPOs has always seemed more like a curiosity to me than anything, despite how often people (notably non-T2 BPO holders) rate them as being ISK printers.

That said, I'm welcoming of more T2 BPOs becoming available for purchase.

Amassing a T2 BPO Library to me (if you're not intending to attempt to profit from manufacturing) seems to me like building a moat around your garden and buying a boat just to agitate the neighbors. Which truly to me, is the most noble and highest form of behavior.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#24 - 2013-06-04 17:53:27 UTC
Another 70something T2 BPOs on the market brings the total to about 250. Isn't this like 5% of the total T2 BPOs in the game?

I can understand the speculation about it becoming less profitable to produce off these BPOs, but is this explanation a cover up for something more sinister? Do the sellers have some information that we mortals don't?

Any colour you like.
iskflakes
#25 - 2013-06-04 18:55:56 UTC
...what do they know that we don't?

-
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#26 - 2013-06-04 19:12:58 UTC
I'm selling on behalf of a client who just needs a change from manufacturing. Hemmo is looking to downsize and have more time for other activities in EVE.

No secret agenda, just 2 sales that happen to occur roughly at the same time.Smile

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Samroski
Middle-Earth
#27 - 2013-06-04 21:37:29 UTC
Thank you for the reassurance, Grendell. Think I had too much time to think during downtime and a T2 BPO nerf seemed imminent :)

I'm nearly certain that CCP won't mess directly with T2 BPOs, but looking at those 2 threads gave me that niggling feeling that one of the devs, towards the end of a pub crawl, may have let slip something about their long term plans for 'fixing' T2 BPOs.

Also: these 2 auctions, and the upcoming auctions have killed the market for many smaller fish. I have a cruise missile BPO that may have sold nicely at this time, but little chance now :)

Any colour you like.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#28 - 2013-06-04 22:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Grendell
Samroski wrote:
Thank you for the reassurance, Grendell. Think I had too much time to think during downtime and a T2 BPO nerf seemed imminent :)

I'm nearly certain that CCP won't mess directly with T2 BPOs, but looking at those 2 threads gave me that niggling feeling that one of the devs, towards the end of a pub crawl, may have let slip something about their long term plans for 'fixing' T2 BPOs.

Also: these 2 auctions, and the upcoming auctions have killed the market for many smaller fish. I have a cruise missile BPO that may have sold nicely at this time, but little chance now :)



Yeah flooding that many bpos on the market at once is certainly not the best move. But perhaps he will take my approach and divide it into smaller batches. Smile

EDIT: Funny enough everytime I drop a large number of bpos for sale a few of these threads pop out.Lol

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♥ Securing Peace of mind ♥
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-06-04 22:29:10 UTC
Samroski wrote:
Invention has been nerfed in odyssey, and thus T2 BPOs have got an indirect buff. The margins will be better when producing off BPOs. Just this perception is likely to increase the demand of T2 BPOs. To note: the value of T2 BPOs is not dependent on the production profits.

The new items mentioned in the OP will not effect T2 BPOs in any way. BPOs for these items will never exist.


How has invention been nerfed?
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-06-05 02:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerdy McButtHurt Trald
T2 BPO's have cache, but no where near the actual value they used to have.

If you were to purchase a ship BPO "NOW", it would take at least 5 years of 24/7 production to get your money back at current rates. Some are even worse in return time.

Now with the anticipated changes to invention the profit will undoubtedly go down, so the time to get your money back is even longer.

Do you want to buy something that you won't get your money back until 2020 or 2025?
Will you even be playing?




Correction: At current minimum bids on some ship BPO's on Sell Forum, they are at 10 years + to get money back.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#31 - 2013-06-05 02:57:50 UTC
Nerdy McButtHurt Trald wrote:
T2 BPO's have cache, but no where near the actual value they used to have.

If you were to purchase a ship BPO "NOW", it would take at least 5 years of 24/7 production to get your money back at current rates. Some are even worse in return time.

Now with the anticipated changes to invention the profit will undoubtedly go down, so the time to get your money back is even longer.

Do you want to buy something that you won't get your money back until 2020 or 2025?
Will you even be playing?




Correction: At current minimum bids on some ship BPO's on Sell Forum, they are at 10 years + to get money back.


Not to beat a dead horse, but since the insertion of T2 bpos they have consistently gowing up in price. While the returns may no longer be spectacular like way back in the day, when you buy a bpo you arent putting your isk into a blackhole. You have a "physical" asset that has a value. So anything you manufacture from it, is pure profit from day one. Not to mention the value of the bpo will probably go up in price during the time you own it. So let's say you buy a bpo worth 50b, produce from it for a month and earn 1b isk and then sell the bpo. You're now 1b richer than you were a month ago.

Feel free to ignore me though, that's just my 2 isk.Smile

◄[♥]►3rd Party Service◄[♥]►

♥ Securing Peace of mind ♥
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#32 - 2013-06-05 07:11:25 UTC
BTW, as expected, Hemmo found an excuse to withdraw his sale. Exactly what I said : this guy likes too much to brag with his assets to seriously envisage to sell one Lol

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-06-05 10:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tadeo Musashy
to bottom all this nice but obviouslly side-taking debate with a legit infront of the bush question:

where (TF) are my +4, +5, +6... +X ME new decryptors?

or alternativelly: where (TF) is the new t2bpo lotery? (altho reintroducing the old one would also do the trick giving ALL of us a FAIR chance to have one of those "collectors items")

Evil "lucky" ones need not reply as we all know what they would (have to) say... and why... Cry

care about having POLLs available in forum threads? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115634&find=unread
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#34 - 2013-06-05 10:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Samroski
Victoria Sin wrote:
Samroski wrote:
Invention has been nerfed in odyssey, and thus T2 BPOs have got an indirect buff. The margins will be better when producing off BPOs. Just this perception is likely to increase the demand of T2 BPOs. To note: the value of T2 BPOs is not dependent on the production profits.

The new items mentioned in the OP will not effect T2 BPOs in any way. BPOs for these items will never exist.


How has invention been nerfed?

That's probably my limited knowledge showing through. My reasoning at the time I wrote the above was:

ice changes = increase ice products cost = higher POS costs = indirect invention nerf

I thus thought it may cost more to produce off BPCs compared to BPOs. I was not taking into consideration the moon changes, which I still don't understand, but which, others have pointed out, may buff invention.

Any colour you like.
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#35 - 2013-06-05 12:28:35 UTC
Grendell wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse, but since the insertion of T2 bpos they have consistently gowing up in price. While the returns may no longer be spectacular like way back in the day, when you buy a bpo you arent putting your isk into a blackhole. You have a "physical" asset that has a value. So anything you manufacture from it, is pure profit from day one. Not to mention the value of the bpo will probably go up in price during the time you own it. So let's say you buy a bpo worth 50b, produce from it for a month and earn 1b isk and then sell the bpo. You're now 1b richer than you were a month ago.

Feel free to ignore me though, that's just my 2 isk.Smile

Above reasoning is suspiciously similar to 'the minerals I mine are free' philosophy! :)

Though I know what you're saying, and I feel about the same.

Any colour you like.
Vordek Rei
Masters of Mass
#36 - 2013-06-05 19:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vordek Rei
iskflakes wrote:
...what do they know that we don't?


Some of us have spent 5 years at a university getting a M. Sc. degree (edit: which can be applied to market speculations) and perhaps a few years in real-life jobs.
To answer your question - perhaps quite a bit.
Tiven loves Tansien
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-06-06 16:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiven loves Tansien
BPO "sellers" right now know that they have to sell them in the following year but know that they can milk the cow still.

Right now they are only checking prices and how much people want them (just check their threads Lol ). Before it's too late for them (1 year max) they will have their house cleaned.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#38 - 2013-06-07 21:50:20 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:
Vordek Rei wrote:
I will tell you why we are selling our T2 BPO's. If you are clever you can figure it out here in my other post.

My post on R64 and market changes.

If you just want a quick answer then here it is.

More people are going to be manufacturing T2, control of T2 component market becomes very difficult.
Lower profit on T2 production from increased competition.
Slight chance of a rebound on the market, but the golden days of T2 BPO ISK printing is about to end.


Your analysis is speculation about investment in moon materials.

You extrapolate it to final T2 products.

This is the flaw of your analysis : T2 market is driven by demand, not by offer. Ship overhaul, new trends in pvp, change the demand for a particular ship.

In the end, T2 ship bpos will always be profitable as long as the ship they produce are useful. Whatever are the prices for moon materials and composites...

On a side note, T2 bpos are not isk printing machines : it's a lot of dedication to buy, haul, make components, assemble T1 and T2 ships, haul again then sell : For 25 T2 bpos (cruisers and industrial hulls), I use continuously 100 production slots 24/7, making a rough 45 Bil profit per month. And I produce a few hundreds more ships from invention, from cruiser hulls to jump freighters. Total isks involved in the processes (from buy orders to sell orders in instance) is around 350 Bil


I'd say he has a very accurate tone. Markets that don't end with a product that will be fielded and in time destroyed are markets doomed to saturate.

The new Optimized Esoteric attainment decryptor is at 11 mill in Jita and in a few short days several have arrived there. 90% added, 20% base, +2 run makes a 3 run Rhea copy, a 3 run Golem copy for 11 mill. Research is no longer a throttle on T2 production.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#39 - 2013-06-07 22:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lara Dantreb
Ioci wrote:

I'd say he has a very accurate tone. Markets that don't end with a product that will be fielded and in time destroyed are markets doomed to saturate.

The new Optimized Esoteric attainment decryptor is at 11 mill in Jita and in a few short days several have arrived there. 90% added, 20% base, +2 run makes a 3 run Rhea copy, a 3 run Golem copy for 11 mill. Research is no longer a throttle on T2 production.


If I understand well, with this decryptor you end with a 3 run ME-3 copy.

I let you watch the build cost for a Rhea ME-3 and compare it to a Rhea ME-1...

For jump freighters, no matter the invention cost. allways use a ME-1 decryptor or you won't make a dime of profit. (hint : at least 600 more millions isks in advanced materials...)

my 2 cents after 80+ Jump freighters built...

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Sabre Rolf
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-06-08 09:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabre Rolf
Tiven loves Tansien wrote:
BPO "sellers" right now know that they have to sell them in the following year but know that they can milk the cow still.

Right now they are only checking prices and how much people want them (just check their threads Lol ). Before it's too late for them (1 year max) they will have their house cleaned.


and why do they have to sell them in the following year?? the Majority of those who are bidding on T2 BPO`s are owners of such for a long time, why should they buy even more of them when "the house must be cleaned" as you say?? makes literally no sense at all what you say.

a year ago, CCP Dignitas did a tweet that there over a 1000 different T2 BPO owners in the game, and you guys freak out and call a T2 BPOlypse because 2 individuals decided to sell theirs...

and one of these two indivudals didnt even sell a single BPO (if he ever owned them)
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