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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#301 - 2013-06-06 14:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.


There are also men who would like the game more if it had space barbies. And not for the obvious reasons of "they're gay" or "cheap porn" either, but because they want to experiment with fashion, or interact with people as a person rather than a spaceship. There are forms of interaction besides shooting each other, after all :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#302 - 2013-06-06 14:24:54 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Someone who isn't Malcanis wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.


There are also men who would like the game more if it had space barbies. And not for the obvious reasons of "they're gay" or "cheap ****" either, but because they want to experiment with fashion, or interact with people as a person rather than a spaceship. There are forms of interaction besides shooting each other, after all :)


Em you have not attributed that quote correctly, Mara.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lady Areola Fappington
#303 - 2013-06-06 14:26:01 UTC
I'll present a silly hypothetical to you guys, in response to the "(this thing I consider girly) will draw more women to EVE!"

Would you play Barbie's Shopping Adventure Online, if we added a section involving Ken racing Barbie's Lambo on the street?

Here's how you get more women into EVE...continue iterating and fixing the sandbox, adding more features that go along with flying spaceships. That'll attract the women to EVE, who want to play an EVE game.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2013-06-06 14:26:15 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.

It is a pretty sexist thing to say that women are only interested in playing with computer-generated dolls and clothing, yes.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#305 - 2013-06-06 14:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Malcanis wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Essentialism_and_society_and_politics

tl;dr: No you're wrong and wrong in a horrible way.

Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that not many women would want to play EVE, but then again, not all that many men want to either. EVE is already a niche game because it's sandboxy, FFA PvP, full loot, dark & merciless. But that's no reason to allow it to be pushed into the even tighter niche of FFA PvP, sandboxy, full loot, dark, merciless and culturally hostile to women.

If there are 10,000 women playing EVE right now, then I don't think it's a great stretch to believe that there are another 10k out there who'd play if they could log onto comms without hearing "**** or gtfo".


I hear you, but at the same time you can't expect internet people to conform to any standard of decent on a grand scale.

Groups like INIT can do it and enforce a standard (im happy to say I haven't had a single problem since my corp came back to INIT, corp doesn't allow douchebaggery at all and it's nice to be in an allaince that doesn't either), but not many others are going to and there no way to force them to either.

I've been mostly lucky to be in groups where rampant racism wasn't tolerated but at the same time I've been in alliances where the "N-word" was used so much I thought it was a ship doctrine or something..... The introduction of a space ship named Naga didn't help that at all lol. Being black (don't let my white girl avatar fool you Smile ) in the game of mostly not-black people is hard sometimes, but I kept playing because I know that those people flinging racism on comms wouldn't dare do that to my face lol. Cowards gonna cower.

I'd love to see more women playing EVE, but I don't think the game makers should go out of their way to recruit any demographic of people. Ultimately your gender, race or whatever else doesn't and should matter in a video game, if it did I'd race tank complexes all day long lol.
Lady Areola Fappington
#306 - 2013-06-06 14:27:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Doublepost, like a boss. ignore

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#307 - 2013-06-06 14:27:49 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Here's how you get more women into EVE...continue iterating and fixing the sandbox, adding more features that go along with flying spaceships. That'll attract the women to EVE, who want to play an EVE game.


With the important bit being, "don't treat people differently just because they have two X chromosomes."

And that doesn't stop me still wanting space barbies :P
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#308 - 2013-06-06 14:28:21 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Would you play Barbie's Shopping Adventure Online, if we added a section involving Ken racing Barbie's Lambo on the street?
.


If it were Grand Theft Auto style and I could jump out and gank barbie on the street, hell yea I would Big smile
Lady Areola Fappington
#309 - 2013-06-06 14:33:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Would you play Barbie's Shopping Adventure Online, if we added a section involving Ken racing Barbie's Lambo on the street?
.


If it were Grand Theft Auto style and I could jump out and gank barbie on the street, hell yea I would Big smile


Jenn dear, you have...issues. You've been playing EVE too long, I thinks.

(starting on Grand Theft Auto:Barbie mods)

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Ariel Dawn
Daerie Inc.
Toilet Paper.
#310 - 2013-06-06 14:34:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Essentialism_and_society_and_politics

tl;dr: No you're wrong and wrong in a horrible way.

Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that not many women would want to play EVE, but then again, not all that many men want to either. EVE is already a niche game because it's sandboxy, FFA PvP, full loot, dark & merciless. But that's no reason to allow it to be pushed into the even tighter niche of FFA PvP, sandboxy, full loot, dark, merciless and culturally hostile to women.

If there are 10,000 women playing EVE right now, then I don't think it's a great stretch to believe that there are another 10k out there who'd play if they could log onto comms without hearing "**** or gtfo".


The player base in EVE is fine and is about on-par from what you get from other games, it's not really the factor that is keeping more women away from the game.

Here's the main thing, EVE isn't really a "game" when compared to everything else that's popular. It's more or less a blow-stuff up and market-spreadsheet simulator. There's pretty much no story that you can follow along, nothing that contributes to immersion, and no clear goals to work towards other than more ISK. These things have very niche appeal; EVE's player base regardless of women is pretty small.

The tutorial is bland, the UI over-complicated for new players, and there is a substantial lack of customization options. Imagine if EVE had a similar system that is in the game All Points Bulletin, where you can design your own art for characters and vehicles. Heck, I still remember seeing this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrtwESnTOwY and thinking holy crap that's awesome! Being able to focus on a character that you've made makes it more personal; instead in EVE you are usually a giant dull metallic brick in space, plenty of which are pretty male/phallic looking as well, hah.

The game is also very unforgiving, shocking as it may be, most people's definition of fun doesn't involve having their stuff blown up and then being laughed at.
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#311 - 2013-06-06 14:38:23 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.


There are also men who would like the game more if it had space barbies. And not for the obvious reasons of "they're gay" or "cheap ****" either, but because they want to experiment with fashion, or interact with people as a person rather than a spaceship. There are forms of interaction besides shooting each other, after all :)


Sure. More avatar interaction would be lovely. I'd like to see more of it. But i realize eve is about spaceships and is for spaceships. If I want avatar interaction this is not be game I turn to currently. I play eve because of things it has that other games don't. Awesome market. Danger and risk. And I love the people I hang out with.

While I would enjoy much more in the customizations and interaction ability I'm not convinced eve is he proper venue for it anymore. I guess it would depend how it was implemented.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#312 - 2013-06-06 14:40:06 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I'll present a silly hypothetical to you guys, in response to the "(this thing I consider girly) will draw more women to EVE!"

Would you play Barbie's Shopping Adventure Online, if we added a section involving Ken racing Barbie's Lambo on the street?

Here's how you get more women into EVE...continue iterating and fixing the sandbox, adding more features that go along with flying spaceships. That'll attract the women to EVE, who want to play an EVE game.

It's not going to make much difference if the culture can't accept that women are also equally capable of enjoying and understanding this game.
They should, considering that there are many women who play EVE, who are both as competent and as fallible as any man, many of whom also enjoy the PVP aspect as much as or more than any given man in the game.
RAZOR Alliance's "Troika" (essentially an executive leadership board) includes a woman who I must say (at the risk of brown-nosing) is very good at what she does. It's also pretty common to see her in fleets, often flying logi or providing titan bridges (or both).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#313 - 2013-06-06 14:42:07 UTC
I bet if you made a common room for capsuleers to mingle in, which also had a window to space so you could see what's happening outside the station, people would be falling over themselves to get to that "Enter Captains Quarters" button Twisted
Seniae 0n3
#314 - 2013-06-06 14:43:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I'll present a silly hypothetical to you guys, in response to the "(this thing I consider girly) will draw more women to EVE!"

Would you play Barbie's Shopping Adventure Online, if we added a section involving Ken racing Barbie's Lambo on the street?

Here's how you get more women into EVE...continue iterating and fixing the sandbox, adding more features that go along with flying spaceships. That'll attract the women to EVE, who want to play an EVE game.

It's not going to make much difference if the culture can't accept that women are also equally capable of enjoying and understanding this game.
They should, considering that there are many women who play EVE, who are both as competent and as fallible as any man, many of whom also enjoy the PVP aspect as much as or more than any given man in the game.
RAZOR Alliance's "Troika" (essentially an executive leadership board) includes a woman who I must say (at the risk of brown-nosing) is very good at what she does. It's also pretty common to see her in fleets, often flying logi or providing titan bridges (or both).


You were doing so well and then you come with one of those examples that proves women can be a serious threat. You disappoint me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#315 - 2013-06-06 14:44:00 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Essentialism_and_society_and_politics

tl;dr: No you're wrong and wrong in a horrible way.

Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that not many women would want to play EVE, but then again, not all that many men want to either. EVE is already a niche game because it's sandboxy, FFA PvP, full loot, dark & merciless. But that's no reason to allow it to be pushed into the even tighter niche of FFA PvP, sandboxy, full loot, dark, merciless and culturally hostile to women.

If there are 10,000 women playing EVE right now, then I don't think it's a great stretch to believe that there are another 10k out there who'd play if they could log onto comms without hearing "**** or gtfo".


The player base in EVE is fine and is about on-par from what you get from other games, it's not really the factor that is keeping more women away from the game.

Here's the main thing, EVE isn't really a "game" when compared to everything else that's popular. It's more or less a blow-stuff up and market-spreadsheet simulator. There's pretty much no story that you can follow along, nothing that contributes to immersion, and no clear goals to work towards other than more ISK. These things have very niche appeal; EVE's player base regardless of women is pretty small.

The tutorial is bland, the UI over-complicated for new players, and there is a substantial lack of customization options. Imagine if EVE had a similar system that is in the game All Points Bulletin, where you can design your own art for characters and vehicles. Heck, I still remember seeing this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrtwESnTOwY and thinking holy crap that's awesome! Being able to focus on a character that you've made makes it more personal; instead in EVE you are usually a giant dull metallic brick in space, plenty of which are pretty male/phallic looking as well, hah.

The game is also very unforgiving, shocking as it may be, most people's definition of fun doesn't involve having their stuff blown up and then being laughed at.


And as I said, it also has a strong anti-woman culture amongst the players.

It's not a problem for CCP to sort out. It's a problem for us to sort out.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lady Areola Fappington
#316 - 2013-06-06 14:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

They should, considering that there are many women who play EVE, who are both as competent and as fallible as any man, many of whom also enjoy the PVP aspect as much as or more than any given man in the game.
RAZOR Alliance's "Troika" (essentially an executive leadership board) includes a woman who I must say (at the risk of brown-nosing) is very good at what she does. It's also pretty common to see her in fleets, often flying logi or providing titan bridges (or both).



Spot on as usual, James. There's two sides to the coin (speaking as a girl).

Ladies need to suck up a certain amount of the "locker room" banter. It's not said in malice, give back as good as you get, this is EVE.

Gents need to lay off when told to do so. If someone asks you to cut out the kitchen jokes, then cut it out. It's likely gone well past funny anyway, if someone is telling you to shut it.


Hooking in an amusing anecdote...Had a foolish person making too many kitchen jokes in fleet. I was running the covert cyno chain. Well, the bombers needed an emergency jump out, and I may have waited until said idiot got popped before I lit the cyno.

"OMG WTF where was cyno?"

"Sorry, I was in the kitchen, making my man a sammich. He says it's real good, BTW."

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#317 - 2013-06-06 14:53:35 UTC
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You were doing so well and then you come with one of those examples that proves women can be a serious threat. You disappoint me.

This is EVE. Threats are fun.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Seniae 0n3
#318 - 2013-06-06 14:58:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You were doing so well and then you come with one of those examples that proves women can be a serious threat. You disappoint me.

This is EVE. Threats are fun.


I meant to say ... you shouldn't need to use an example of how tough women can be. The only reason you need the example is to make it feel good for you to write something like that about women.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#319 - 2013-06-06 14:59:29 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

They should, considering that there are many women who play EVE, who are both as competent and as fallible as any man, many of whom also enjoy the PVP aspect as much as or more than any given man in the game.
RAZOR Alliance's "Troika" (essentially an executive leadership board) includes a woman who I must say (at the risk of brown-nosing) is very good at what she does. It's also pretty common to see her in fleets, often flying logi or providing titan bridges (or both).



Spot on as usual, James. There's two sides to the coin (speaking as a girl).

Ladies need to suck up a certain amount of the "locker room" banter. It's not said in malice, give back as good as you get, this is EVE.

Gents need to lay off when told to do so. If someone asks you to cut out the kitchen jokes, then cut it out. It's likely gone well past funny anyway, if someone is telling you to shut it.


Hooking in an amusing anecdote...Had a foolish person making too many kitchen jokes in fleet. I was running the covert cyno chain. Well, the bombers needed an emergency jump out, and I may have waited until said idiot got popped before I lit the cyno.

"OMG WTF where was cyno?"

"Sorry, I was in the kitchen, making my man a sammich. He says it's real good, BTW."


ROFL

Back when I was in the Gallente Militia there was one FC who seemed to have a problem with "minorities" and he knew I was one of them. I had a small fleet out and he starts spamming Militia chat about needing help. He was like 6 jumps away so i turn my gang around to go try to save him.

By the time we get there his last ships are exploding and the Caldari guys are going away. He starts starts up his usual crap in militia chat and demands to know why it took me and my gang so long to get there....


....To which I replied "well, we would have been here sooner but someone said there was a bucket of KFC floating around in a belt in Old Man's Star, and you know how "we" are about that fried chicken, yum yum".

Comms and militia chat fairly exploded with all the laughter lol...everyone except the other FC Cool
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2013-06-06 15:36:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.


It's not just him or guys like him, it's overall the environment. MMO PvP games are an offshoot of FPS games and it adapted it's culture, and how guys psyche each other out is all that smack talk. It's a guy thing. But that's not how women interact. Women can be competitive, but generally they're supportive. That can be seen as a weakness to guys, but that's what women do.

I can relate a story from my past when I was a WM (Woman Marine). The ladies barracks we would help each other out (we're all in this together attitude). We were on the 3rd floor of one of those old H buildings, and the guys were on the 2nd floor across in another H building. The mentality in the men's barracks that we could see was alien. Guys who refused to shower, they would carry them into the shower clothes on, hooping and hollering. Again it was a guy thing. To them it's competition, they like competing against each other. Women barracks was very quiet and orderly, we had our routines and it was calm in contrast. We didn't compete against each other. PT in the marines you're taught how to use pugil sticks, and the ladies it took more effort to attack. First time I was paired with a tiny girl just barely 5ft tall. In my mind I couldn't attack her as she was so small. So I let her attack first. See? The guys took no prompting, they put on the war face and attacked each other.

And that's the Marine Corps, at MCRD Parris Island.

Now put women on the rifle range things changed. A lot of the ladies excelled. Not because they could listen to instruction well, but because by nature. Men pull the trigger hard, when it's instructed to squeeze it gently. Men also breathe harder, so when it came qualification time they pulled the triggers and didn't hold their breath well. Ladies did. They would get tighter groups, and that's how you get your rifle badges in the real world...it's not headshots...it's tight groups.

Women cooperate. Put a group into a foreign situation they'll by nature pull together and help each other. Activities that work well for this they will be very good at. Men compete. And we see games all about competition. On the fundamentals they are at odds in gaming. What is considered "gaming" to men (and to many devs itself) goes against what women do naturally.

And that's the real reason why gaming doesn't appeal to women, especially combat oriented games. They don't want to compete like guys, and they prefer to cooperate. They will gravitate to other things that feel good and relate to them. And if that's pink furry pets, it'll be pink furry pets (but they can do fine without them too -- do you see a Woman Marine hold them on duty??? -- but if that's all they can relate too...).

This is w-h-y a game must have PvE for women. Point blank. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink it. So any effort to simply train a woman to do PvP will fail unless she has her comfort zone that is supportive, cooperative and social (with a lot of communication).

Currently that's not the design of EvE. It's "Everybody vs Everybody" and that environment will not be conductive for most women. Do the studies, and it'll show just that. Superior hand/eye coordination. Superior shots. But ask them to compete every step of the way, they'll return to WoW or game like it (because there they don't have to compete with others).

So correcting him to be more PC in itself won't make it better. That's what devs have to do (after they conduct their surveys and all) to design an environment that's hospitable for women, while still living up to being EvE itself.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell