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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#281 - 2013-06-06 09:48:57 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/03/96-percent-of-eve-online-players-are-male/
Quote:

CCP marketing bigwig David Reid recently told Destructoid that 96 percent of EVE Online players are male. The site also interviewed EVE senior producer Andie Nordgren, who opined that the numbers are a byproduct of genre.

"Part of it is due to the theme of the game. Science fiction is an extremely male-dominated domain," she explained. Whatever the reasons, CCP is OK with EVE's current demographics. "It's not a goal for us as a development team to specifically increase the number of female players," Nordgren said. It's "more an indicator than something [to] strive for."


Takeaways:
a) GiRL is GiRL. Think about that the next time you cyber.

b) How can we, a bunch of sci-fiction addicted hyper-aggressive males with spastic trigger fingers and/or mining/missioning Carebears who enjoy repeated repetition while dwelling in our parents' basement, help CCP to increase sub numbers by attracting female players to EVE?

I, for one, am at a loss. Especially after my wife laughed when I asked for suggestions.



I'm a girl. I think if they get WIS online where we can go SHOPPING, hang out at the club, and make more clothing/hair options so we can be HAWTER than ever it may draw more of us in :)

Seriously, the games that women play (facebook games) seem to be the homemaking, clothes buying, farming type of games. I've always loved those things, but I also love things like skydiving, rappelling, and snorkeling. So maybe it's an adventurous type female that would be more drawn to this game. If some of the women would just give it a month and get their feet wet they may end up liking it here though.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#282 - 2013-06-06 09:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Drones are already adorable, my Warrior IIs are named Jeffrey, Bob, Lucas, Sally, and Gizmo. I imagine when i log off Jeffrey gets into all sorts of trouble, Lucas being forced to babysit all of them, and Gizmo tricking everyone into going on a faroff worldwide advetnure.


This is adorable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gMQi8emxc

He dances with you.

He tweets.

He flies with you on your flying mount.

He even packs a mean punch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHtk9iFts3Y



I was always a fan of Lil' KT. For two reasons, Kel'Thuzad was always my favorite lore character, and because he shoots critters near you and laughs when opponents die in PVP.

He's pretty much everything I want in a tiny little minion.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#283 - 2013-06-06 09:58:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, what is the issue, and what needs to be changed to fix it?


In short: your attitude that if 8 of your corp members act like jerks to 2 of your other corp members, then it's the fault of the 2 for being in the minority, not the fault of the 8 for being jerks.

I'm fortunate to be in an alliance where the leadership takes a very different attitude to yours, and believe me we rip on each other plenty, but we manage to do it without alienating our female members, or blaming them for feeling excluded.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#284 - 2013-06-06 10:16:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, what is the issue, and what needs to be changed to fix it?


In short: your attitude that if 8 of your corp members act like jerks to 2 of your other corp members, then it's the fault of the 2 for being in the minority, not the fault of the 8 for being jerks.

I'm fortunate to be in an alliance where the leadership takes a very different attitude to yours, and believe me we rip on each other plenty, but we manage to do it without alienating our female members, or blaming them for feeling excluded.



Close. My attitude is that if I have 8 established individuals, and 2 come along and have a problem with them that can't be resolved, I will cut the problem off where it began. There's always more people. If I'm placed in a situation where someone comes along, male, female or Martian, and if that someone says "it's me or them", that person is gone like Jimmy Hoffa. And if I can, I'll strand them in a wormhole for the Russians.

But.

I meant in your opinion, what is wrong with this "not enough female players" issue. Not on the statement you took exception to.

You posted earlier that you'd like to see the population of EVE expand by 30k or so, and that it'd be ideal if we can get that demographic from female players.

So. What's the issue then, that EVE doesn't appeal to females? Is that something we need to fix, or...? Please explain in detail.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Anita Too
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#285 - 2013-06-06 10:18:41 UTC
Some suggestions:

1) Make PI more graphical and allow slaver hounds to chase after tiny DUST guys on planets (think: Happy Farm... er.. Planets).
2) Interactive WIS, chats and allow fellow capsuleers to hug/carry each other around (to be fair, allow same gender huggings etc as well).
3) Allow engagement, marriage and birthday parties (and sell wedding rings that beeps/glows when the partner logs on).
4) Allow capsuleers who are married ability to combine 2 ships into Voltron that offers special attacks.
5) Eve beauty contests.
Seniae 0n3
#286 - 2013-06-06 10:41:05 UTC
Oh ... my ... gawd!!!! You guys are still at it?????????? Women play Eve get over it!


I feel like I'm back in time in the Tribe of the Cavebear.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#287 - 2013-06-06 10:42:44 UTC
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
Oh ... my ... gawd!!!! You guys are still at it?????????? Women play Eve get over it!


I feel like I'm back in time in the Tribe of the Cavebear.


That. Is a lot of question marks.

So, what is it with calling people cavemen lately? What is that supposed to imply?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Seniae 0n3
#288 - 2013-06-06 10:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Seniae 0n3
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
Oh ... my ... gawd!!!! You guys are still at it?????????? Women play Eve get over it!


I feel like I'm back in time in the Tribe of the Cavebear.


That. Is a lot of question marks.

So, what is it with calling people cavemen lately? What is that supposed to imply?



I suggest you read the book "Tribe of the Cave Bear" or watch the thing on Youtube (which is less fun than reading the book).
Basicly it's about the limited brain in those times where homo erectus and neantherthaler lived together with the homo sapiens.

The older species were not able to think ahead they could only think and repeat from their memories. They were not able to change their memories and adjust them to the here and now.

Anyways .... good book :)


Edit: sorry English isn't my first language ... Tribe of the Cave Bear should be Clan of the Cave Bear
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2013-06-06 10:50:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So. What's the issue then, that EVE doesn't appeal to females? Is that something we need to fix, or...? Please explain in detail.


Well, if this thread was posted on the front page of eveonline, you can effectively say it's not recruitment material for women.

First issue is PvP in itself, when PvE is more fun. PvE offers more activities as well, especially the activities ladies prefer to do.

So that's a major barrier to overcome in itself. Especially when CCP is adamant that the game is about PvP.

The other barrier is dealing with the "I HATE GIRLz!!!" stage guys be it natural (junior high boys), or from experience (fallout with girlfriends; divorces). Will ladies pay to play in that environment? Especially when little details about VOIP convos turn out to be an issue against all women.

The other issues are the dynamics. Do they want to deal with players that resemble little brothers or hen picked guys? How's the policies with creeps, as geeks tend to be, to put it nicely, "off" on the other sex?

Then there's activities in a set culture that's pretty old and dinosaur like. What can EvE offer that won't upset the apple cart, nor insult the intelligence of ladies?

And if folks aren't willing to honestly confront these details, the chances of women even making 20% of the population will be pretty nil. Especially when other games don't have these roadblocks.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2013-06-06 10:51:46 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(



In other words.. ccp need to change the aurum store into a shoe's shop. Better into a corridor where there are shops of pants, shirts shoes etc.. on display. So woman would be forecd by their genetical wiring to spend all their time and money there collecting 300 shoes

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Seniae 0n3
#291 - 2013-06-06 11:01:52 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(



In other words.. ccp need to change the aurum store into a shoe's shop. Better into a corridor where there are shops of pants, shirts shoes etc.. on display. So woman would be forecd by their genetical wiring to spend all their time and money there collecting 300 shoes



Well I haven't even touched the aurum I got for free from CCP which is I believe a total of 5500. I'm really not interested in the Nex Store. Though I must say when the red shirt came out, a lot of men were hunting the shirt to add to their collection.

As for character customization ... I only touch that one if I'm beyond bored and really don't know or don't feel like I want to do anything.

It would however help if men wouldn't be so patronizing. I understand their need to protect women and if they can't protect they'll have to attack, you know how that works. It's just really old fashion.

Also there is a major difference between the tough men chatter (measuring weener sizes), which I have absolutely no issues with, and the flat out blabbing idiots who scream stuff about women belong in kitchens and what not ... getting so old and boring.

Men require females to act like women as do women require males to act like men.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#292 - 2013-06-06 11:51:27 UTC
Sorry folks,

I'm locking this thread for multiple violations of the rules against trolling, personal attacks, sexism and common decency.

It will be reviewed by CCP for action and may be re-opened pending a clean up however.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#293 - 2013-06-06 13:22:38 UTC
I have cleaned up this topic and am unlocking it. Refrain from anything that's sexist or the like and we'll be fine.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Seniae 0n3
#294 - 2013-06-06 13:35:46 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have cleaned up this topic and am unlocking it. Refrain from anything that's sexist or the like and we'll be fine.


The whole discussion by its self is sexist
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#295 - 2013-06-06 13:47:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, what is the issue, and what needs to be changed to fix it?


In short: your attitude that if 8 of your corp members act like jerks to 2 of your other corp members, then it's the fault of the 2 for being in the minority, not the fault of the 8 for being jerks.

I'm fortunate to be in an alliance where the leadership takes a very different attitude to yours, and believe me we rip on each other plenty, but we manage to do it without alienating our female members, or blaming them for feeling excluded.



Close. My attitude is that if I have 8 established individuals, and 2 come along and have a problem with them that can't be resolved, I will cut the problem off where it began. There's always more people. If I'm placed in a situation where someone comes along, male, female or Martian, and if that someone says "it's me or them", that person is gone like Jimmy Hoffa. And if I can, I'll strand them in a wormhole for the Russians.

But.

I meant in your opinion, what is wrong with this "not enough female players" issue. Not on the statement you took exception to.

You posted earlier that you'd like to see the population of EVE expand by 30k or so, and that it'd be ideal if we can get that demographic from female players.

So. What's the issue then, that EVE doesn't appeal to females? Is that something we need to fix, or...? Please explain in detail.


I'd say that a large part of the problem is you and people like you. You explicitly say that you're not willing to change your culture. That culture is largely responsible for keeping women away (it's utter bullshit to say that women don't like sci-fi, or that EVE can't be an appealing game for women, so let's not even go down that route).

It goes back to my first remark: Everything is peachy for you and people like you. You don't have a problem so you can't see why anyone else should have a problem. No one in your corp is saying anything that offends you, so if anyone else is offended then that's their problem.

But it doesn't maybe occur to you that, at the very least, you're losing out on good recruits because you're not willing to confront a problem within your corp. Instead, you're defending and enabling the people who are acting like jerks to potential female recruits.

When I said that we don't do that in our alliance, that's true now, but it didn't used to be that way. I recruited a very good in game friend of mine to VANIS a couple of years ago, but after a few months he left, and I was pretty disappointed. It turned out that he left because, when I wasn't around, there were a few players in INIT. who were making really offensive anti-American comments, and after a while he understandably got sick of it. He didn't mention it to me because he assumed that we'd take the attitude that you're taking - that it was up to him to adapt to the majority, so our corp lost a top-tier prober and I lost a good in game friend.

Later he told me why he left and I passed the info on to our leadership who came down on the offenders hard. Now we have US players again and things are good because we don't tell them that it's their fault for "causing trouble" for being offended by anti-American remarks.

When your guys can't stop tripping over their dicks and act like idiots to female players, I don't care if its 20 of your guys acting that way over 1 woman; they're in the wrong for acting that way, not her for not liking it, and you're in the wrong for not calling them on it. As the corp CEO it's supposed to be exactly your job to tell people who are being ****** to your members to back off, even if the offenders are also your members.

Why on earth would you defend a corp member's right to be crappy to another corp member, instead of confronting them? Because you'd rather side with 8 guys than 2? Wow. I'm glad I'm not in your corp, because who the hell could rely on you to back them up when they were in a tight spot? Awesome leadership you're showing there mate.



"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

0Lona 0ltor
Lightning Squad
Hell's Kitchen.
#296 - 2013-06-06 13:58:34 UTC
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#297 - 2013-06-06 14:04:27 UTC
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have cleaned up this topic and am unlocking it. Refrain from anything that's sexist or the like and we'll be fine.


The whole discussion by its self is sexist


Well … you can't discuss sexism without pointing out some of the more egregious displays of such Sad
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2013-06-06 14:06:28 UTC
This post was buried in the pages, but needs repeating for incredible insight...

+1

Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
WiS would have appealed to women.

Seriously.

I recall my Ex who played WoW and she was just as much into the appearance of her "toon" as she was adept at playing the actual game.

And, from my experience training women in the firearms world, if you teach them how to deal with stuff that they find scarey, they will follow your instructions TO THE LETTER. This is why female students were always better shots.


So, if there was a drive to bring women to the game, and PROPERLY guide them in PVP (yes, PVP), they might actually enjoy it.


Because if there is one thing a woman cannot stand (having trained scores of them and having been raised an only son in a "hive of daughters") , it would be the way noobs are told so little about this game and then getting OMGWTFPWNGANKED by some aspergian loser saying "Boom! Headshot! Phag GBTW loser! Ha ha!". You see, the women won't want to play that kind of game with that kind of person because they usually know better than to sink to that level. This is why they pay lower car insurance in the real world, as an example. When the guy in the Datsun B210 tries to race them, they ignore him, you see.

So I think that the basis of giving the women something they like (and the fashion engine that WiS is will appeal to a lot of them) and not letting the game continue to be a "he who is most neckbearded and least of having a life wins" will bring them to the game.

Yeah yeah I know. But the killboard! My stats! It's a sandbox! Marsha Marsha Marsha! All that other crap. Some of you guys should try viewing yourselves from the outside if you can stand it.


Sadly, a stricter policy of harassment or ways to mitigate it would also be needed because some of your neckbeards don't know how to act when a woman is present. Seriously I have heard of some horror stories from hacker/tech conventions. Pathetic. Maybe you shouldn't try to see yourself from the outside as the knowledge of knowing how pathetic you are would kill you out of sheer disgust.

Otherwise, this game is going to continue to be a raging sausage fest. And if some of you are proud of that, you might want to reconsider your sexual preference.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#299 - 2013-06-06 14:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Essentialism_and_society_and_politics

tl;dr: No you're wrong and wrong in a horrible way.

Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that not many women would want to play EVE, but then again, not all that many men want to either. EVE is already a niche game because it's sandboxy, FFA PvP, full loot, dark & merciless. But that's no reason to allow it to be pushed into the even tighter niche of FFA PvP, sandboxy, full loot, dark, merciless and culturally hostile to women.

If there are 10,000 women playing EVE right now, then I don't think it's a great stretch to believe that there are another 10k out there who'd play if they could log onto comms without hearing "**** or gtfo".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Seniae 0n3
#300 - 2013-06-06 14:21:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Walking in station & char customization would attract more female gamers as well as more integration with station enviroment and inter avatar interaction. Call me a sexist pig but I bet a lot of girls would be intrested in Space Barbie while a lot of boys are intrested in space war currently eve is 99% space war & only 1% space barbie.

If you want girls you need to give sapce barbie more room, the majority of eve players however don't want space barbie so thus very few eve Chicks.

The few eve chicks are of course intrested in space pew pew.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_essentialism#Essentialism_and_society_and_politics

tl;dr: No you're wrong and wrong in a horrible way.

Women aren't all the same, and there are a percentage of them who are or would be quite happy to play EVE the way it is. Of those of them who would like to play EVE but don't, a very large fraction aren't playing because people like Kaarous.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that not many women would want to play EVE, but then again, not all that many men want to either. EVE is already a niche game because it's sandboxy, FFA PvP, full loot, dark & merciless. But that's no reason to allow it to be pushed into the even tighter niche of FFA PvP, sandboxy, full loot, dark, merciless and culturally hostile to women.

If there are 10,000 women playing EVE right now, then I don't think it's a great stretch to believe that there are another 10k out there who'd play if they could log onto comms without hearing "**** or gtfo".



It's a mistake and misconception about women always being made. Really space barbie girls/women don't play Eve or FPS games for that matter. Dressing a female soldier in a night gala to play an FPS really isn't going to attract more women to an FPS