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Will you be my Valentine CSM?

Jokes aside, as a mining gang leader, I ordered my troops to abandon mining profession for two months a week ago. We'll see how it turns out, and if it turns out how I think it will, well, some mining alts subscriptions will go. It were a fun time, people logging in to mine in the evening to discuss news, country, their kids, etc on voicecomms, and post some nasty pics in local, but every good thing will meet its Fozzie someday...

Yes, because Ganking is a dieing play style, it really does need buffed.

When I played AOC one of their big patches they did a lot of things the gankers were asking for. They said Hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous world, promoting Ganking would give it that feel. Within a month after the expansion the population on the PVP servers was down 75%, they ended up merging the PVP severs and it still kept droping. They refused to admit what they did was wrong, and the game kept going down hill. It was not long after that it went free to play, but it is little more than a gankfest with the only real appeal being the tournament games, that were supposed to be just bonus content, The main game world is empty and dead.

Ganking does not need buffed or even encouraged. it is a growing fad, that can easily get out of hand if left unchecked. If CCP decides that ganking is a healthy thing for EVE, fine, don't do anything to stop it. let it run its natural course. But making game changes to buff ganking in attempts to give gankers easier targets will do nothing but encourage those targets to quit.

Every Ganker keeps insisting that ganking is PVP. While it is a form of PVP there are differences. Consider an example. Two brothers grow up on a farm. they both like to shoot, and fight. One joins the army, the other moves into the city and starts killing and robbing people. One is a hero killing enemy solders, the other is a thief and murderer. Both are out killing people, doing the same basic activity, but they are not near equal, they are not both solders. This is how I look at PVP compared to ganking. PVP is going out fighting other PVPers other solders. The fight is not always fair, but kill them or they will kill you. true PVP. Ganking is the equivalent of a murderer killing innocent civilians on the street. It does not make you a PVPer, yet the ganker says I am a leet PVPer, I killed 200 mining ships this week. Is a solder who killed 200 enemy solders the same as a murderer who killed 200 people on the streets of a major city? No, One is a hero, the other should be shoot and pissed on.

If your choice is to be a thief and a murderer, that is fine, it is only a game, you can do that here, but do not expect to get the respect that a true PVPer gets, you are just a ganker, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

No seriously, HTFU. Since you can't figure it out on your own, I'll explain how WH mining needs to work now:

-Close your static(s) and all incoming wormholes.
-Ignore all remaining sigs in system (after verifying that the only remaining WHs are your closed static(s))
-Start mining, with the empty signature list visible.
-If something appears on the list, GTFO.
-Figure out if the new sig is a WH. If not, ignore it and go back to mining. If it is a WH, stay in your POS or log off since you're a carebear.

You no longer need to worry about catching probes on dscan at the exact right time--you get a nice warning label that someone new has entered your system.

I agree, mining in wh is dead. Dunno what ccp thinking, no chance to survive as miner in wh. Im already transport my assets from wh to nullsec.

Pvp players are most whiners of this game.

can i ask you this how is being a sitting duck ever fun now its just eaiser to find said duck and kill it and hang it on your kill board how is that fun for you or for me its not it takes no skill to scan someone down in 10-20 seconds warp in on them destroy their 100+m ship and pod them to me your just some one who lacks fore thought before dusccsing thing as complex and fragile as the eve economy and your forgetting about hulkageddon so hiding in grav sites during that tomultious time is now impossible

picture this your sitting in a orcca and a hunter warps in on you totaly un expected ad trashes your 500m ship now and with the lack of resources the ship when you could make the isk to get it back is worth even more

[quote=Chris Winter]Again...you're not a sitting duck. HTFU, close the static, watch the list for new WHs. You're safer than you were before.

The only WH mining this killed was mining in a hole you don't live in...and that was always a dumb idea an


i know how to make a worm hole safe the thing is closing your self in is kinda pointless cause the moment its open agian you have to evacuate it makes mining more work then it needs to be you gankers don not relize we supply you your ganking ships when happens when they double and triple in price cause of shortages ?

this updated efectivly killed the 25 man wh corp supply lines and there are a ******* lot of them ALOT to many to count some are 2 people multiboxing but they can supply 2-3 systems in a region with adquate material if not abundant and you want to kill that you sir dont know **** about industry you wil learn soon enough when market prices skyrockets for everything.

simple fact ship prices dictate most of the modules and ammo costs and mats dictate ship costs MINERS GET MINERALS

What did you mean by "close static"? Once you close it, another one will respawn. Putting static into critical mass condition some kind a way.

WOW, you are really clueless.

It is not about miners being smart enough to find ways around the changes. Miners are miners because it is a LOW EFFORT activity. The only miners that will continue to mine in W-space and unsecured null are the ones to dumb to evaluate the risks. And those will soon be gone due to their ships being destroyed faster than they can afford to replace them.

Yes there will still be miners mining. But 80% of them do not fit into this little class of smart ambitious miners you speak of. If the 20% that do keep mining there will still be an 80% drop in supply.

If you are so smart, economics 101, what happens when supply drops below market demand? Your ratting and plex running will still make you the same isk, but your ships will cost 3-4 times as much. Who will be crying then? i give it 6-8 months for this to impact to really hit the market, due to the over supply and stock piles that existed pre Odyssey.

Lets say with the added risk miners have to make double the income they did before the change to offset the risk. For a miners income to double the price of the minerals they mine must double. If the cost of minerals doubles the cost of every thing in game doubles. What will not double is the bounties you collect from killing rats. So do to the inflation caused by this increase in minerals every ratters income will effectively be cut in half. While the miners income remains effectively the same as they are the only ones to benefit long term from the increased mineral costs. Now what if doubling their income is not enough to offset the new risk. what if it takes 4 times the income to offset the added risk?

To put this in perspective lets say the average null sec ratter makes 100M per hour. And lets assume the average ratting ship costs 500M. I know some ratters make a lot more than this, and likewise some ratting ships cost billions. But the average should be close to this. Now lets assume the price of minerals will only double. The average ratter is still only making 100M but now the average ratting ship will cost 1 billion isk. At 4 times it would cost 2 billion isk, while your income stays the same. The bounties are not affected by mineral prices. On top of this the reduction in miners will mean ratters will be getting hunted more. It is not just miners that will be affected, ratters will also see a massive increase in risk vs reward, it will just take a little longer before we see it.

You apparently don't understand how wormholes work, and probably shouldn't be living in a wormhole.

If you collapse your static wormhole, another one will respawn, yes--but the "other side" K162 of the new WH won't spawn until you warp to it. If no one has warped to the static inside the system, nobody can come into the system via that static, because it doesn't go anywhere yet. Nobody can come in that way, so you only have to keep an eye out for new entrances.


To paraphrase you:
WOW, you are really clueless about how the scanning changes in Odyssey work.

First, however, let me give a small apology and acknowledge your correctness outside of wormholes--I was only speaking from the perspective of someone who lives in a wormhole.

The grav site change has basically killed solo/small group mining in lowsec and NPC null. Doing so is now suicidal, yes, and anyone who tries will be killed in short order. However, I don't think you're aware of how risky that already is--someone could have scanned down the grav site prior to you logging on, and they may already be able to get to you without needing to put probes out again. So it's not like you were perfectly safe before Odyssey and now you're not safe at all--you were already at risk previously. Less risk sure, but still at risk.

I also think you're vastly overestimating the effect that solo/small gang LS/NPC NS miners have on the overall market. Take a look at the server population distribution. Even if only 1% of people in highsec/sov null are mining (indubitably a very low estimation), that still outnumbers everyone in LS/NPC NS--and not everyone in LS/NPC NS is mining. I don't have the exact numbers, obviously, but I doubt that LS/NPC NS solo/small gang miners account for a very significant portion of the minerals market, so losing those miners won't make a big difference.

Now, back to wormholes.

If you close your static (as I described above) and verify that there are no other WH entrances to your system, no one else can come in without opening another wormhole So, the only ways that people can get into your to kill you are:
1. Be already in your system, hidden and waiting.
2. Open a wormhole into your system.

In case 1, you were already screwed before Odyssey, because they probably have already scanned down the grav site and don't need to put out probes to find you. They can find you before, they can find you now. No change.

Case 2 is where it gets interesting. Imagine the following scenario...you're living solo in a WH system. You've closed the static and are mining at a grav site. Someone else opens a WH into your system and comes through in a cloaky ship looking for trouble.
- Prior to Odyssey: If the WH opens within your dscan range, you have a less than 5 second window in which to see the enemy ship on dscan when it leaves gate cloak and activates its cloaking device. They will then find your approximate position with dscan, leave your dscan range, drop probes, move the probes right on top of you to get a warp in, and destroy the probes so they go away instantly. You had, at best with someone who's so-so at scanning, a 30-second window in which to see the probes on dscan. At that point, the person's possibly already in warp to you, and you've got less than a minute to GTFO before you're scrammed. If you miss the timing window (which can be as little as 10seconds or less for a better prober), you will have no idea what just happened, and you will die.
Net effect prior to Odyssey: If you're not dscanning at least every ten seconds, you're a sitting duck.

- After Odyssey: Regardless of where in the system the WH is, it appears on your scanner list/overlay the moment the person warps to it on the other side. They haven't even entered your system yet, and you already know they're coming. Figure maybe 30 seconds for them to finish warping, 15 seconds to get through the WH, a few seconds to get their bearings. Even if you get really unlucky and they're within a couple AU of you, and you're at the only grav site in the system, they still need ~30 seconds to warp to the site, and even then they're warping to the middle of the site. You've already had more than a minute warning in the worst case scenario for you, and they're just now landing on grid. That's also not a specific short window of time, like with dscan before Odyssey--once the new sig shows up on your list, it stays there, so even if you're not looking right when it shows up you can still react in time. Let's also not forget that they either need to slowboat to you (if they warped to 0 on the site) before getting a tackle, or do an on-grid warp to whatever rock you're mining, if they warped in at 100 and you're more than 50km from the center of the site in the right direction--and the math works in your favor there.
Net effect after Odyssey: If you're looking at your scanner window at least every minute, you're going to have time to get out.

Wormhole miners are safer now than they were before Odyssey.