These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Could someone explain the logistics of PVP to me?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#21 - 2013-06-05 17:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
Fa Xian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
A PvP battleships simply adds tons of buffer. Any added repping usually comes in the form of logistics/remote-repair ships.


Isn't the life expectancy of a logistics ship almost 0? Who reps the reppers? How many people make up a valid group to keep your group in space for more than 1 encounter?

I guess the main question I don't get is this...

How often do you lose your ship? How often do you get podded?

It seems like if I sit down for an evening of PVP, I'm going to have to plan to lose 5 to 8 ships.


logi usually have a long range on reppers, and stay well away from the center of the fight and use ab usually to keep sigs low. They are extremely hard to hit, usually.


EDIT: Also, if you're curious about how often people die, look them up on eve-kill.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#22 - 2013-06-05 17:23:26 UTC
The logistics are simple, OP.

You fly into the gate camp and die.


Wait, you want to be in a fleet?


You fly into the blob and die.


Any questions?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-06-05 17:23:36 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:


What is the most desired role for PVP play then? Is there a universe hungry for logistics pilots to back up the fighters? Is it even possible to PVP and live without major logistics support?


Yes and yes.

No competent FC is going to turn away a good logi pilot, but by the same token, people roam solo and in small wolf packs all the time without it. You find your prey, kill it, return home when necessary to repair and rearm, then go out and do it again.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2013-06-05 17:23:56 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Fa Xian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
A PvP battleships simply adds tons of buffer. Any added repping usually comes in the form of logistics/remote-repair ships.


Isn't the life expectancy of a logistics ship almost 0? Who reps the rappers? How many people make up a valid group to keep your group in space for more than 1 encounter?

I guess the main question I don't get is this...

How often do you lose your ship? How often do you get podded?

It seems like if I sit down for an evening of PVP, I'm going to have to plan to lose 5 to 8 ships.

logis (T1 or T2 variants) usually work in groups. only logi I can se somewhat working alone is a scimtar, and even then it's only in small roaming gangs. more is better tho.
…in addition, logistics ships are surprisingly sturdy and hard to damage. The T2 logistics ships all sport very low signatures, for instance, which makes them difficult to hit, even with cruiser-sized weapons.
Seniae 0n3
#25 - 2013-06-05 17:26:42 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
In PvP you generally fit for buffer tank without any kind of repairs, along with the highest dps you can while ignoring things like cap stability and such.


I'm no stranger to doing my homework. I know all about PVP fits... it just doesn't mesh well with my solo PVE understanding of what works. I see fits all the time with a 1600mm on a cruiser with no armor repairer. And I think, okay, I get that you're planning to last longer than the enemy. So, let's assume you live through one fight... armor at half?! And no way to fix it for the next fight?

I see then that everyone who fits like this is assuming that they'll have a logistics partner to rep them. A solo guy probably hopes for getting the drop on the other guy, so no need to worry about "after fight" or "second fight"

What is the most desired role for PVP play then? Is there a universe hungry for logistics pilots to back up the fighters? Is it even possible to PVP and live without major logistics support?



You'll have to get your head out of PVE fit thinking ... In PVE the rats do damage yes and there are quite some of them sometimes but you are able to rep against their dps.

To be able to rep against someone elses high DPS in PVP is rare if you dont have logistics backup. In PVP you fit a ship for speed, dps and effective hitpoints to be able to take more hits.

The thrill is to damage the other ship fast and hard with more DPS than your ship will be damaged fighting their DPS with your EHP.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-06-05 17:30:14 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
IAt some point eureka happens and you get a better grip on what each ship is actually capable of. When you look back then to the losses you incurred now, they will make so much sense!


I'm not ignorant of the theories, I'm ignorant of the practice. When I've lost ships, it wasn't PVP - I wasn't prepared or interested in engaging. I'm doing PVE. Someone comes by and blows me up. I'm not surprised or annoyed. I knew the risks.

I'm more like "hey, I lose ships really, really easily in low... how does anyone stay in their ship for more than a minute after they fight?" I'm curious how the other half lives - it's not a judging thing, it's a mystery thing.

I could not afford to lose a ship every day. I can't see how people can have a "PVP playstyle" if they have to lose a ship every day. That means at best they have a split PVP/PVE playstyle where they PVP one day and grind on rocks the next to pay for their PVP.

But there's certainly a lot of people who seem to suggest they PVP all day every day. They must not lose ships very often? i wonder how that is, I guess...
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-06-05 17:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Fa Xian wrote:
What is the most desired role for PVP play then? Is there a universe hungry for logistics pilots to back up the fighters? Is it even possible to PVP and live without major logistics support?


well, I myself like more support-type roles. those are the hardest ones to come by too, because everyone wants to fly on the big bad meanies. being a tackler is fun too. zipping about in a taranis doing anti-tackling work is helluva fun too. logi pilots need nerves of steel and eagle eyes. FC's have the most ingrate work of all, but extremely rewarding too.

truthfully tho, out there some people are better at certain roles than others. for example, a good FC isn't that hard to come by with the correct training. a great FC however, it's something that is both tallent and hard work mixed on there. anybody can become a good tackler, but the better ones are the ones that have a bigger spark of insanity than others.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Seniae 0n3
#28 - 2013-06-05 17:34:47 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
[quote=Inxentas Ultramar]

I'm more like "hey, I lose ships really, really easily in low... how does anyone stay in their ship for more than a minute after they fight?" I'm curious how the other half lives - it's not a judging thing, it's a mystery thing.

I could not afford to lose a ship every day. I can't see how people can have a "PVP playstyle" if they have to lose a ship every day. That means at best they have a split PVP/PVE playstyle where they PVP one day and grind on rocks the next to pay for their PVP.

But there's certainly a lot of people who seem to suggest they PVP all day every day. They must not lose ships very often? i wonder how that is, I guess...


A lot of them have alt accounts to grind for isk in whatever way. There are also loyalty points to gain in Factional Warfare for example which can be used to exchange for items in the LP store.

Then there is your loot. A lot live off the loot and build new ships with the bits and pieces they salvage and loot on the way. This usually counts when you're more skilled and able to kill more in PVP.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-05 17:35:40 UTC
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You'll have to get your head out of PVE fit thinking ... In PVE the rats do damage yes and there are quite some of them sometimes but you are able to rep against their dps.


I'm not talking about rep during the PVP fight. I mean after. If you're going to sit down for an evening of PVP game play, you log in, fly to the fight, luckily win, and you're at half strength... and no rep on your ship? How do you get a second fight?

I've hung out a little in low. If I wanted a fight, it would take seconds to get one. I mean, really... like it would take longer to fit and undock than warp to a gate and - enemies! So, how do you PVP "all night"? In the PVP fits I see, they must depend on reppers being there to keep going to the next encounter? Can't be docking up and using NPC station repair.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-06-05 17:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Borlag Crendraven
Fa Xian wrote:
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
IAt some point eureka happens and you get a better grip on what each ship is actually capable of. When you look back then to the losses you incurred now, they will make so much sense!


I'm not ignorant of the theories, I'm ignorant of the practice. When I've lost ships, it wasn't PVP - I wasn't prepared or interested in engaging. I'm doing PVE. Someone comes by and blows me up. I'm not surprised or annoyed. I knew the risks.

I'm more like "hey, I lose ships really, really easily in low... how does anyone stay in their ship for more than a minute after they fight?" I'm curious how the other half lives - it's not a judging thing, it's a mystery thing.

I could not afford to lose a ship every day. I can't see how people can have a "PVP playstyle" if they have to lose a ship every day. That means at best they have a split PVP/PVE playstyle where they PVP one day and grind on rocks the next to pay for their PVP.

But there's certainly a lot of people who seem to suggest they PVP all day every day. They must not lose ships very often? i wonder how that is, I guess...


Nah, at best they are in a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example). Those who don't, simply rat in low or null, run sites in wormholes or possibly use station trader alts, PI, incursions or even missions to fund their pvp addiction. If you fight in t1 boats, the insurance alone covers a large portion of your loss, as long as you don't lose the boat to concord. Then there's the bounties, drops from the kills etc etc... If you normally fight in t2, t3, faction or pirate boats you just fly cheaper when you run out of isk and get back in the game with a bit of shine after your wallet fattens up. It's really not as big deal as you make it out to be.

edit: and it is indeed docking that people use to get repaired. It's not pvp all day all night, it's more like pvp throughout the day. After a good fight you generally want a short break anwyay to catch your breath, docking up just makes that simpler. Can go get a drink and have a smoke while at it too and so on.
Seniae 0n3
#31 - 2013-06-05 17:40:40 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
You'll have to get your head out of PVE fit thinking ... In PVE the rats do damage yes and there are quite some of them sometimes but you are able to rep against their dps.


I'm not talking about rep during the PVP fight. I mean after. If you're going to sit down for an evening of PVP game play, you log in, fly to the fight, luckily win, and you're at half strength... and no rep on your ship? How do you get a second fight?

I've hung out a little in low. If I wanted a fight, it would take seconds to get one. I mean, really... like it would take longer to fit and undock than warp to a gate and - enemies! So, how do you PVP "all night"? In the PVP fits I see, they must depend on reppers being there to keep going to the next encounter? Can't be docking up and using NPC station repair.



Usually you dock up and repair when you're alone or in a small fleet with no rep support. Then there are armor repping drones you can use after the fight when you warped to a safe spot. Unless you want to sacrifice a low slot for the armor rep which is not often the way to do it because 1. it leeches cap 2. it's useless in fight and takes up a low. 3. you'll probably have to sacrifice a damage modifying module to fit the repper

A fleet with logi support speaks for itsself
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-06-05 17:40:43 UTC
…also, as more of a meta-comment: when people say that the EVE community is newbie-unfriendly, just look at this thread. This is how you ask for help. In reality, the community loves any newbie willing to learn, and the unfriendliness only comes out when it's readily apparent that someone is more interested in complaining that the game “doesn't work” rather than in figuring out how it does work.

Good job OP. Blink
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-06-05 17:42:23 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
... a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example).


So how does THIS work? Someone has to pay for those ships. Does the corp have non-PVP grinders that just donate it all to the PVP corpmates out of the goodness in their hearts?
Amarra Mandalin
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2013-06-05 17:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Until people are more experienced, I advise against implants -- and even then it's a risk, particularly with smart bombs and hot drops and instalock set ups.

One way to minimize loss and still train at a decent speed is to use +3s for the two skill attributes you need, and then either burn them or set up another clone similarly for when you need to switch.

PvP can become "typical" but it's really not, unless you're only measuring the outcome or only fly in large fleets.

I'd suggest Red vs. Blue (R-V-B) to at least get a taste of it and take part in some of the null roams people go on as well, when you're ready.

You'll also find plenty of variably fair solo fights. And during wars you'll get a somewhat more "typical" PvP experience, save for null mechanics and toys.

If you want to move on to Null, FW, low-sec or soloing etc., you'll at least improve your chances for killing more and dying less.

Lastly, for many people, PvP is as much about the people they fly with then it is about exploding ships. And depending on if your play style is serious or casual, you'll want to find a similarly-minded corp/alliance to get the most out of it.


ETA: Ship Replacement -- check the ship replacement policy of a respective corp. It varies considerably, though many require a doctrine fit and limit reimbursement to certain OPs.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2013-06-05 17:47:15 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
... a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example).

So how does THIS work? Someone has to pay for those ships. Does the corp have non-PVP grinders that just donate it all to the PVP corpmates out of the goodness in their hearts?

The exact details will vary, obviously, but often, yes — it almost boils down to that. It's not just the goodness of their hearts, though, but more of your standard social contract: if you take care of your buddies, they will take care of you. If you chip in to the loss fund, they will too, and when one of you loses a ship, it's a small loss for the group as a whole.

In addition, if it's a well-organised group, they'll also realise that new players are worth investing in: yes, they'll lose a lot of ships, but those ships will be cheap and they get a lot of training. That training will translate into (much) fewer and less expensive losses in the long run.

You could also see it as a kind of miniature insurance: you keep saving ISK for a rainy day, and when that day comes, you take some money back and get back in the game with it.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-06-05 17:48:38 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
... a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example).


So how does THIS work? Someone has to pay for those ships. Does the corp have non-PVP grinders that just donate it all to the PVP corpmates out of the goodness in their hearts?


I've never been in a null alliance so I can't comment much on how they fund it, but I'd assume their taxes, moon mining income and such are enough to handle all that. For them, having pvp'rs is essential to keep their space anyway, so they pretty much have to ensure that their pvp players have ships to blow up in.

With a corp like mine it's kind of different and perhaps even somewhat unique. We live in a high class wormhole where isk making is very easy and always a group effort. At the end of each week all profits from the sites, pvp drops, ransoms from people, gas and ore harvested (usually just gas) and all other forms of income is piled up into one big pile that is then split between the members who were active during the said week. The more active you were, the bigger your cut will be. Some of my corps guys run those sites mainly, some run sites and do pvp, and some like me just do pvp. None of those ways are really inherently worse than the other, it's just different. What this kind of system ensures is that even the most boring jobs get done because it pays, be it scanning the wormhole connections, scouting for hours to find the pvp, hauling fuel for the corps poses...literally anything you can think of that can be considered as a job for the corp instead of just for yourself. Not a system that works for everyone, but it works for us and keeps all kinds of players happy.
Seniae 0n3
#37 - 2013-06-05 17:49:56 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
... a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example).


So how does THIS work? Someone has to pay for those ships. Does the corp have non-PVP grinders that just donate it all to the PVP corpmates out of the goodness in their hearts?



Those guys usually own a POS have massive indy going and are strong in PVP. The guys fighting are often only dependent on isk donation the first few weeks. The big guys just print their isk out of their POS and moongoo and missioning and what not. Ships are cheaper to make if you build them yourself with a POS. It's not that they don't have to do anything anymore but it just comes and goes easier for them after so many years.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#38 - 2013-06-05 17:52:05 UTC
I think there are too many variables to consider when pvp'ing solo. You are playing the role of a hunter-seeker. You have to actively seek prey you are capable of tackling while simultaneously watching for predators. This means alot, having eyes in your area of operation, preferably in adjoining systems to keep track of danger and prey, or running a recon ship or similar setup capable of busting gate camps, keeping safe spots and gate tacticals so you never fall into a trap or can get hunted down when you are outnumbered or outgunned.

I have very few shining examples of solo pvp, but my best was one time while traveling through null blue space in a drake i accidentally ran into a gang of 3 or 4 ruptures. That fight lasted for a good 5 or 10 minutes, and I managed to take down 2 on my own before a random blue in an interceptor came and helped me down a third and the fourth ever never existed or warped off. I had to use hardeners to survive and they managed to get me down to a sliver of shields before they gave up, they tried warping off and coming back to throw off my locking and I guess to rep and they tried neuting me to kill my hardeners.

Flawless fight I thought until I realized I was using T1 ammo instead of the fction navy, I could have killed them all! :p

Anyway nice thing about drakes back then was if you had shields they recharged and you never repaired, if you didn't, well, you didn't need to worry about repairing because you were dead.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Lady Areola Fappington
#39 - 2013-06-05 17:56:12 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
... a corp or alliance that reimburses ship losses (most null), or even one that pays them to pvp (my corp for example).


So how does THIS work? Someone has to pay for those ships. Does the corp have non-PVP grinders that just donate it all to the PVP corpmates out of the goodness in their hearts?


Depends....SRPs are often funded by what we call "alliance level income". Things like moon mining, renting out space to people, such as that.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#40 - 2013-06-05 18:03:06 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:
I don't really know a damn thing about PVP in this game. So, I thought I'd ask some questions.

Don't you get blown up in seconds? I mean, i've been blown up. It tooks seconds. A tanked out T1 battleship wrecked in seconds, the kind of thing that could go all day against rooms full of rats... and a guy can just show up and wreck it in seconds. So, don't PVP pilots get all blown up in seconds after any engagement? No matter what you are flying and who you are with?

I mean, isn't it only a jump or two before, whoops! a gang twice your size. Everyone is always mounting scramblers, so few if any flee and whatever side started down is smoking space wrecks in under 2 minutes? Do you have time to even react? My experience with PVP is largely gate camps where it is 1 (me) versus 20 (them) - it doesn't take long.

Do people who engage in PVP use implants? Wouldn't you lose them on like a daily (hourly?) basis? How do you keep yourself in implants if you're getting podded constantly? Are you getting podded constantly? Why not? Isn't that what people automatically do and seek? How do you even keep yourself in space if you are constantly getting destroyed? Do you run hours and hours of missions on an alt to pay for all the ships you lose every other day?

I guess I could really use someone explaining a typical PVP encounter. Say, two guys looking for people to fight in lowsec run into one another? Is that typical? What is typical?

I'm very curious, but I don't have any information or experience... fill me in.


Gate camps are not a true indicator of typical pvp. Gate camps are more an opportunistic type done to pad your kill board because some people care about that type of thing. Neither is ganker miners/Indy some like to call it pvp but I can’t see the point of killing someone who can’t fight back.

I would recommend red vs. blue if it’s still active. Good place to learn tactics against similar fit ships and odds.