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T2 gun cap usage
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-11-04 06:52:03 UTC
Does anyone agree with me that T2 guns should not use more cap than the T1/meta 4 variants?

Here's how I look at it:
Guns use ammo
Lasers use capacitor

If T2 proj guns don't use more ammo per shot, T2 lasers shouldnt use more capacitor per shot.

Then you throw in that T2 lasers basically use ammo (as your T2 crystals wear out), and its even more screwed up.

Going from T1 to T2 projectile guns you only have to deal with increased fitting needs.
With T2 lasers and hybrids, you have to deal with potentially crippling increases in energy consumption, and with the lasers, now you have additional logistical problems with crystal supply (even assuming you used faction ammo in T1 lasers, going to T2 crystals increases the amount of crystals you need to store by a factor of 4)
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#2 - 2011-11-04 17:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Storing a spare set of crystals is a lot easier than storing a hold full of ammo. Those "extra logistical problems" are not really problems at all, comparatively. I mean, look at hybrid ammo...those rounds take up a ridiculously huge amount of cargo comparatiively. You can fit 8000 shots in two sets of crystals, and still have almost all of your cargo left. Hybrid ships can't fit anywhere close to 8000 volleys in their cargo.


As for the cap use, I believe the idea is that tech 2 guns should come with better support skills, so you'll use more cap but also have more cap to use, compared to when you were using t1.

thhief ghabmoef
Le'Mon Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-11-04 17:49:52 UTC
The only guns I see this really causing a problem with are t2 Tachyons, and even the faction variants are energy hogs.

Like Fronkfurter said, if you're training the support skills alongside the primary skills, and you aren't sitting at Amarr Battleship II or III, the usage issue is barely noticeable.

Can you hear them? They are calling to us. It is beautiful. http://thegreattichim.wordpress.com/
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-11-05 00:50:57 UTC
Re: Fronkfurter
You need 8 sets for 8000 voleys, not 2, if we are talking T2 ammo.
If we are talking faction ammo, then T1 vs T2 makes no difference.
I agree with you that hybrid charges take too much cargo space, I have previously posted suggesting as part of the comign rebalance, that the volume of Hybrid charges and projectile ammo be swapped.

Re: Le'Mon
I'm going to have to disagree with you about it not being an issue unless you don't have Amarr BS IV or V
For one thing, it doesn't help the Abaddon one bit.
I fly a nightmare, which essentially has a -50% cap usage bonus (it does the damage of 8 lasers like the abaddon, with the capacitor needs of 4).
Granted I'm still a new toon (energy management 4, energy systems 5, controlled bursts 4), even the meta 4 Mega Pulse cause me cap issues- without CCC rigs, or a cap recharger in mids, or a discharge elutriation rig, my nightmare is not cap stable firing its guns.
Its fine for a 5 min incursion site, but a 30% increase in cap use when I go to T2 guns... ouch... I'm going to need to broadcast to top up my cap after each site - and my nightmare won't be usefull for much of anything except running incursions (I've previously suggested a buff for Sansha ships).
Compared to the cap usage, I expect the increased PG/CPU requirements to be trivial

Meanwhile, the Winmatards and Caldari only have to deal with the PG/CPU requirements.

Lasers, T1-T2:
Increased PG and CPU
4x more logistical problems
30% increased cap usage

Hybrids, T1->T2:
Increased PG and CPU
30% increased cap usage

Missies, Projectiles:
Increased PG and CPU

It doesn't seem balanced to me...
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-05 01:05:17 UTC
Lasers T1: lower activation cost, no scorch

Lasers T2: higher activation cost, yes scorch.

Those seem fair.

Large neutrons are all of a 3.7 GJ difference, potentially less when the changes go through. void still seems suboptimal especially with the hail changes going through though.
river Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-11-05 01:15:11 UTC
Is this guy seriously complaining about the best weapon system in this game. Ok so you got a cap problem...you also do your FULL damage at 45+10. Winmatarcannons have less damage than this AND work in falloff. Cap problems is a deserved downside to lasers, and should increase if your base damage is increasing from the T2s.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-11-05 03:18:15 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
and with the lasers, now you have additional logistical problems with crystal supply (even assuming you used faction ammo in T1 lasers, going to T2 crystals increases the amount of crystals you need to store by a factor of 4)


You should try hybrids. Go through your entire hold full of ammo in 2-4 missions.

I think cruise/torps are similar.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#8 - 2011-11-05 04:37:19 UTC
CCP Tallest is strongly considering halving hybrid charge cargo space useage, as well as removing most of the significant drawbacks from a majority of the T2 charges. You should read the devblogs if you're interested in changing these sorts of things!

:)

Kale

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-11-05 04:49:16 UTC
Groundbreaking ideas.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#10 - 2011-11-05 05:04:55 UTC
hehe, not sure if serious?

It's a start.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-11-05 05:20:17 UTC
To put my post in less code: about ******* time, & a dev blogging about stupid obvious changes instead of just changing them isn't impressive.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-11-05 07:31:09 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
and with the lasers, now you have additional logistical problems with crystal supply (even assuming you used faction ammo in T1 lasers, going to T2 crystals increases the amount of crystals you need to store by a factor of 4)


You should try hybrids. Go through your entire hold full of ammo in 2-4 missions.

I think cruise/torps are similar.


I'm complaining about the extra energy costs of hybrid T2s as well.

Sure scorch is great, but is it really proportionately any greater than barrage?
They both give effectively give a 50% range bonus.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#13 - 2011-11-05 10:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Takahashi
Desudes wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
and with the lasers, now you have additional logistical problems with crystal supply (even assuming you used faction ammo in T1 lasers, going to T2 crystals increases the amount of crystals you need to store by a factor of 4)


You should try hybrids. Go through your entire hold full of ammo in 2-4 missions.

I think cruise/torps are similar.


Hybrids Yes Jesus those and Auto's are nightmare on the ammo.

Missiles not I go through 1500 if that missiles in a long mission like AE. [cruises torpedoess even less]

To the OP shush. I have just recently trained lasers and I am still amazed how easy they are.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2011-11-05 10:30:38 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that T2 guns should not use more cap than the T1/meta 4 variants?
Nah. Bigger is not better.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-11-05 19:53:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Does anyone agree with me that T2 guns should not use more cap than the T1/meta 4 variants?
Nah. Bigger is not better.



Longer training time being better is a pretty reasonable expectation.
Mona X
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-05 21:19:17 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
Lasers T1: lower activation cost, no scorch

Lasers T2: higher activation cost, yes scorch.


I can do it too.

T1 projectiles: no activation cost, no barrage
T2 projectiles: no activation cost, yes barrage

I need new signature.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#17 - 2011-11-05 21:39:41 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Longer training time being better is a pretty reasonable expectation.
Perhaps in other games. In EVE, it just increases your versatility. T2 weapons follow this pattern quite nicely by adding a new tier of launchers/turrets that, in and of themselves, offer variety compared to what you can already use, and additionally let you load ammo for new and different purposes than what was available to you before.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2011-11-06 05:32:34 UTC
I think mini pilots need to try scorch before they complain about it. . . especially on this mythical omg-harbi that people seem to talk about. . .

all I see are pwn-canes.