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Drake Navy Issue - Feels very weak 8(
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Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#1 - 2013-06-05 02:12:29 UTC
I have just been testing the new Drake Navy Issue and with BC 5 and other support skills up to 4 as well as freshly trained missiles skills (boosting the heavies as much as I can), it felt kind of weak compared to what other, normal drakes tend to be able to do.

Level 3 missions kind of felt slow and came to an abrupt halt during the end of the 'Retribution' mission, when firing 8 launchers with full loads (36) two times empty at a frigate and could not even get it into half shields (2*8*36=576 missiles ). I had to get back and get my Railgun Gnosis and with only 5 guns it took 3,5 volleys and each frigate was down, same range, more speed even (less travel time).

And i trained guns all over the place and specifically trained missiles for the BC, same SP amount. And I only threw the Gnosis together with what I had.

I d really say the buy was not worth it.

Any opposing or supporting observations/experiences ?
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#2 - 2013-06-05 02:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
1. Which type of missiles were you shooting at the webifiers?
2. Did you use a TP?
3. Did you use your drone bay?
4. What are your Target Navigation Prediction and Guided Missile Precision skill levels?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-06-05 02:30:41 UTC
I 3 volley elite frigates in a regular drake and not even on it's lowest resist (angel rats).

You're either not using precision missiles or your missile skills are just bad in general.

Art of Explosions
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#4 - 2013-06-05 02:33:05 UTC
Well, I used the recommended ones, Kinetic and Heat, which is also the same damage type of the railguns. so no issue there. Had all 4 missile types with me anyway.

Forgot about the target painter though°°. But one module should not make the difference between 4 railgun shoots killing and 72 missiles salvos not making a dent.

Dronebay was full with 5 salvager drones, but I did not need to use the T2 Hobos from the Gnosis either, so the comparison still sticks.

Support and Missile support skills up to Missile upgrades are all 3-4. Again, gunnery is not that high as a comparison.
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-06-05 02:33:20 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I 3 volley elite frigates in a regular drake and not even on it's lowest resist (angel rats).

You're either not using precision missiles or your missile skills are just bad in general.


PS its because the navy drake is bad
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-06-05 02:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Well it doesn't sound right because with the caldari battlecruiser skill your damage application to smaller targets should be MUCH better than the regular drake.

Only thing I can think of is that the explosion radius bonus on the navy drake is bugged somehow, would not surprise me in the slightest.

Since I don't particularly feel like paying 500m for one I cannot test it for myself at this moment.

Plus I'm assuming you're shooting regular missiles and not precision: it makes a huge difference.

Art of Explosions
Neutron Pixie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-06-05 02:41:15 UTC
http://o.smium.org/loadout/private/1409/6604465850663567360

[Drake Navy Issue, If it fits it ships]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Hobgoblin II x5

some CPU to spare gonna need to go faction to lose the CPU upgrade. 499 dps with drones 400 without. tech 2 everything all Level 5. can't see tank info or don't know how until EFT is updated. Should do level 3's easily and I know the tank is near the 300+ region from similar ships. Missiles will hit out to 94 km if my math is right. you can drop a rigor because of the bonus for something else you might prefer like another flare?

94 km with standard, 70 km with fury, 83 explosion radius before rigs, seems like a solid ship to me. Maybe you are fitting or flying it wrong? I'm pretty new to missiles boats maybe this needs moar TP! anyways just a general idea
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-06-05 02:45:25 UTC
What I do not get is this:

"5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius per level"

Does this increase the explosion radius or decrease it?

If it increases it, it will do **** damage to anything less than cruiser. Unless they are using MWD.

If it decreases it, it will do about 75% HAM fury, which doesnt seem to be happening.

All level 5 skills.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#9 - 2013-06-05 02:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Well, thx, but I was not really asking for a fit. I was talking about comparison and other ships with equal amount of training time, ISK investment and modules. I could tweak my Gnosis higher then that with T2 modules across the board too.

And I don't know about the 500 mil, I bought it for 180 mil earlier at Jita - but next system it was at ta price range of 400 mil 8) - 1 jump, but other sector.

Just before I always felt like the 5th tire on a car flying next to a Drake, today, the Drake lost with leagues to my usual mission boat.

EDIT:

Yeah, kind of got confused there too, In one info it says "increases explosion velocity that is better to do more damage against smaller and faster targets" and in another it says "it is not as effective, because the increased explosion radius does less damage to smaller and faster targets".
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#10 - 2013-06-05 02:52:43 UTC
Some suggestions.

1. Use a TP.
2. Use your drone bay, thats what scout drones are for.
3. Make sure that the two skills listed in the previous post are @ 4.
4. Use HAMs, they have much better explosion radius stats.

There is no way in high hell that the DNI has worse damage application than a regular Drake. Unless there is a game bug of course.
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-06-05 02:55:15 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Some suggestions.

1. Use a TP.
2. Use your drone bay, thats what scout drones are for.
3. Make sure that the two skills listed in the previous post are @ 4.
4. Use HAMs, they have much better explosion radius stats.

There is no way in high hell that the DNI has worse damage application than a regular Drake. Unless there is a game bug of course.


Read my post

Do you know how "5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius per level" works?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#12 - 2013-06-05 02:56:06 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:


There is no way in high hell that the DNI has worse damage application than a regular Drake. Unless there is a game bug of course.


Well, that is kind of what it feels to me.

Again, I am not going for perfect build, best dps fit or anything, just comparison.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#13 - 2013-06-05 03:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Combatevolved wrote:

Read my post

Do you know how "5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius per level" works?


I read your post, that why I put "Unless there is a game bug of course" inside mine.

A bonus to the explosion radius stat means that the missile has less explosion radius. The same applied for the CNI and CNR, which are working as intended...
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-06-05 03:18:18 UTC
Hmm:
Being more mobile, able to project missiles more effectively at range, against smaller targets and on a wider selection of damage types, this ship is ideal to support small scale conflicts and raids.

10m/s about 1mkg lighter.
Project missiles far.
More EPH
Strong against smaller targets, I am not sure...

If it is stronger against smaller ships, this would make the ultimate frig/dessy killer. **** at other BC. If your missile hits a target whose signature radius is greater than the explosion radius of your missile then the explosion velocity of your missile is increased by the same multiple. Rig against explosion velocity. Might be more viable.

So I am not sure what the niche of this ship is? What is it suppose to be good at killing? What give it an edge over using another ship?

There are cheaper/better alternatives for the price and ship size.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-05 03:44:39 UTC
its niche is it's a real long range missile platform with selectable damage type

Art of Explosions
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-06-05 03:54:34 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
its niche is it's a real long range missile platform with selectable damage type


Doesn't the cerberus already take care of that?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-06-05 05:14:47 UTC
Combatevolved wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
its niche is it's a real long range missile platform with selectable damage type


Doesn't the cerberus already take care of that?


iirc it's kinetic damage bonus plus bad application due to no explosion radius bonus.

Art of Explosions
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-06-05 05:35:04 UTC
I think you are giving too much credit to that bonus. I've been using calculators and it only helps about 5 damage for a standard shield fit frig. Dessy helps around 10.

So instead of doing 20 damage, you do 25 against frig. Instead of 50 damage against dessy, 60. Cruiser is little bit better with +20, 75ish damage total. BC full damage. This is using Caldari scourge HAM.

For less tank, not much more DPS. There is more launchers, but barely squeeze a lower EPH tank than T1 drake. Barely more DPS than T1 drake. (about 10 dps more, 500 more volley).

HM are worse to fit. About the same damage increase as hams, does less damage.

Farthest shooting is 95km. That isn't that far for BC sniping and the damage isn't instant.

HAMs get out damage by other Navy BC, worst tank. Bit faster(not much).

Can you post a fit that will be viable in most engagements? Against say, other navy BC, T1 BC, even cruisers.

Nano is the only fit I can find, and it isn't even that good.

*shrug*
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#19 - 2013-06-05 05:35:43 UTC
You guys do know that the navy BC were meant to be around the same effectiveness as pre-nerf Drake/Hurricane etc?

You also can't really compare guns to missiles like you do. Guns are better at blapping frigs with low transversal even with bigger guns, while missiles are only affected by the explosion formula for missiles which makes it less effective against smaller targets. You need precision missiles to effectively hit smaller targets. If you don't then you will of course not hit for near full damage. Applied damage vs paper damage is not the same...

While target painters can help out guns as well, they are more effective with missiles. Guns can get tracking bonuses from Tracking Computers and Enhancers, while missiles rely a lot more on that signature/speed combo to be within the missiles ability to hit for good damage. A web might not be so useful in PvE sometimes without any range bonuses as you need to get really close to even use it. If you feel like you can do that consistently then it will of course be very useful.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-06-05 06:10:21 UTC
Combatevolved wrote:
I think you are giving too much credit to that bonus. I've been using calculators and it only helps about 5 damage for a standard shield fit frig. Dessy helps around 10.

So instead of doing 20 damage, you do 25 against frig. Instead of 50 damage against dessy, 60. Cruiser is little bit better with +20, 75ish damage total. BC full damage. This is using Caldari scourge HAM.

For less tank, not much more DPS. There is more launchers, but barely squeeze a lower EPH tank than T1 drake. Barely more DPS than T1 drake. (about 10 dps more, 500 more volley).

HM are worse to fit. About the same damage increase as hams, does less damage.

Farthest shooting is 95km. That isn't that far for BC sniping and the damage isn't instant.

HAMs get out damage by other Navy BC, worst tank. Bit faster(not much).

Can you post a fit that will be viable in most engagements? Against say, other navy BC, T1 BC, even cruisers.

Nano is the only fit I can find, and it isn't even that good.

*shrug*







what on earth are you calculating and maybe show some of your methodology.........?

Arch Gistii Thug Typical mission elite frigate.

Has signature radius of 28m and orbits at 450m/s

Following assumptions are made with 4 BCU IIs:

A regular drake with 1 rigor 1 flare rig (most it can do without cpu implants and using faction BCUs) will do 499 damage per volley using precision scourge heavy missiles. This is with a cycle time of 6.1 seconds totalling 81.4 DPS

A navy drake using heavy assault javelins and 1 rigor 1 flare setup and nova javelins will do 470 damage per volley but with a cycle time of 3.2 seconds meaning 146.8 DPS.

As you can see it's almost double the amount of damage applied to something this small.

Art of Explosions
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